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How not to miss Grand Slam in this hand? What is best SAYC bidding sequence?

#1 User is offline   pavsko 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 06:38

Hi, I would like to ask for advice how correctly bid this game as South with SAYC and not to miss Grand Slam?

N:
K 9 6
A 7 4
K
Q J T 7 6 5


S:
A Q T
K Q 9 8 5
A 8 3
A K


I used this bidding sequence but I am not satisfied with it:

(N started with 1C):
1C-1H
2C-4C
5C-5D
6C-PASS


My 5D is not regarded as control bid (cuebid), is it? So how to investigate North's hand correctly? (I see no way how to use Blackwood or Gerber...)
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 07:04

North has a control rich hand and should cooperate in slam investigations. In your auction, he first rejected South's slam try by bidding 5 and then again by bidding 6.

If North makes a control bid after South's 4, then South can use blackwood and maybe he will bid 7 then.

Oh yes, 5 is a control bid. Edit: Sorry I mean 5. Thanks, masse24.

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2016-July-11, 09:01

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#3 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 08:54

There are a few possibilities here. One simple approach would be for Opener to raise hearts:-

1 - 1;
2 - 3; (inter alia)
4 - 4NT;
5 - 5NT;
6 - 7

After the club rebid, Responder also has choices. It is often sensible to take things slowly with such a hand, which should be interpreted as showing significant extras. For example, Responder might try a 2 rebid and follow that up with a 4th suit 2. The problem with this sort of approach is that it gets murky though. I doubt many pick-up partnerships would feel comfortable bidding grand in an auction of this type, whereas the direct raise auctions (2 or 4) offer better clarity even if they pass less information in theory.

As Helene suggests, in the actual auction North was a little cautious. It may be that they would expect a hand as strong as this one to respond with a strong jump shift though. That is of course the other easy route to the grand. After 1 - 2; 3, Responder will probably not find it overly taxing to reach 7 of something.
(-: Zel :-)

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#4 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 08:57

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-July-11, 07:04, said:

Oh yes, 5 is a control bid.


I think Helene meant that 5 is a control bid.

Therefore, even though North did not cooperate in slam investigation by bidding 5 (a mistake in my opinion), after the 5 control bid, he has another opportunity obligation to cooperate by showing the control.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
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#5 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 13:21

Obviously, all of this depends on what your methods are. I don't know what SAYC does in all sequences, but a really simple start:

1-1

2-2

3-?

This start guarantees a GF with heart set as trumps, I assume. It also lets North in on the spade King being very important, although it turns out to be not all that exciting after all.

After 3, Responder could plunk about with a 3 cue, hoping to confirm the diamond stiff or King (4), but that seems somewhat unnecessary. The better part is allowing Opener to suggest poor clubs as a background for later aggressive moves. If responder blasts 4NT, Opener won't know that Q-sixth in clubs is neat. If Opener gets a chance to deny great clubs by NOT cuebidding 4, then he is free to show better things later.

I mean, suppose the 4 cuebid by Opener denies the Ace or King of clubs. How nice would that method be? After 4NT reveals one Key Card, Responder can ask for specific Kings. Surely a 6 "specific King" in clubs, a suit where you earlier denied the King, shows the Queen?



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#6 User is offline   pavsko 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 13:22

Thanks very much for your answers. I found it extremely helpful.
(I have been learning bridge for only about 6 months)
I forgot to mention that the example was the one I played on my mobile app and North was AI not human.
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#7 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2016-July-11, 16:48

With 14 tricks on top on any lead, these hands belong in 7NT, and a less sophisticated approach might work:

1-1
2-4NT
5-5
5-7NT

1,1,2 = as before
4NT = Blackwood -- I'm willing to gamble on 6 right now, I am checking for better things.
5 =One key card
5 =Queen ask.
5 = Got Q, also have K.
7NT = I can count thirteen trick if hearts or clubs split.

As it happens, the clubs are solid and 7NT is absolutely unbeatable--but change JT to 32 and the odds are still excellent--maybe 90%.
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-12, 02:24

View Postpavsko, on 2016-July-11, 13:22, said:

I forgot to mention that the example was the one I played on my mobile app and North was AI not human.

If your AI was GIB, it is worth pointing out that the system it uses is not SAYC.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#9 User is offline   pavsko 

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Posted 2016-July-12, 02:55

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-July-12, 02:24, said:

If your AI was GIB, it is worth pointing out that the system it uses is not SAYC.


This deal was not played here on BBO but in another app (and this app uses SAYC).
I just know this is a very good forum so I posted my question here...
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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-July-12, 04:57

View Postpavsko, on 2016-July-12, 02:55, said:

This deal was not played here on BBO but in another app (and this app uses SAYC).
I just know this is a very good forum so I posted my question here...


Not relevant to SAYC, but this sort of problem is why a lot of people play a 3rd suit forcing style bid so 1-1-2-2 is artificial and either F1 or FG.
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#11 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2016-July-15, 07:07

Playing it as artificial or not, over 2, 2 looks like south's best rebid to me (I don't see why you'd ever prefer 2).

It leads to a convoluted auction, but if you're on the same wavelength should be ok:

1 1
2 2
2 2*
2N 3**
4 ?

* FSF
** The easiest way to set Hs and GF

At this stage south can try various things, but since north has all the cards he's looking for, he should end up in a grand. If I trusted my P I would opt for

(4) 4N***
5 6****
7 Pass or 7N

*** RKCB for hearts
**** Asking for the QC (since we could ask for specific Kings with 5N)
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#12 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2016-July-16, 11:53

It is simple if used Minorwood: after 1-1, 2-4(=Mwd), 4(=14-A)-4(=?Queen), 5(=yes Q+K in diamond s.)-5(=?K), 5(=K of spade)-6NT, 7NT. The club suit could be fifth and without Jack than partner corrects having it sixth too.
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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-July-16, 17:58

View PostLovera, on 2016-July-16, 11:53, said:

It is simple if used Minorwood:

It is simple with many systems but the question refers specifically to SAYC, which does not have RKCB let alone Minorwood.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#14 User is offline   Lovera 

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Posted 2016-July-17, 01:11

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-July-16, 17:58, said:

It is simple with many systems but the question refers specifically to SAYC, which does not have RKCB let alone Minorwood.

As you know i don't use SAYC but having seen that is most citated seems to me this lacking strange. Although RKCB and Minorwood can be inserted.
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#15 User is offline   Stefan_O 

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Posted 2016-July-18, 14:16

View Postpavsko, on 2016-July-11, 06:38, said:


1C-1H
2C-4C
...


View Postmikestar13, on 2016-July-11, 16:48, said:

With 14 tricks on top on any lead, these hands belong in 7NT, and a less sophisticated approach might work:

1-1
2-4NT
...


Ummmm... excuse me...
it's dead easy to bid when you see pds hand, of course, but 2C only promises 5 clubs (since opener can have 4-5 in the minors without reverse strength).
So jumping to 4C or 4NT (esp w 5 suit) would not even occur to me at the table...

I agree with kenrexford, you continue 2 over 2.
This is safe, since opener has already denied 4 cards in (did not bid 1 over 1).
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#16 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2016-July-19, 02:26

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-July-12, 02:24, said:

If your AI was GIB, it is worth pointing out that the system it uses is not SAYC.

It is mystery to me what (known) system GIB is using.
I have my doubts it has one.

I give you a recent GIB hand

973 AQT6 QJ96 84

Bidding

1-(1)-?

GIB bids 2, a poor chocie

The bidding continues:

1-(1)-2-(2)
3-(Pass)-?

and what does GIB bid?

It bids 3

As long as GIB bids like this I think system considerations are completely besides the point anyway.

Rainer Herrmann
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