[Jinksy]

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Our competitive agreements are fairly standard, but this hadn't come up before, and we had differing views on what to expect from each other's bidding. The one relevant non-standard (I think) agreement is that after a penalty pass, we play optional doubles (ie denying the substance to pass a double from P, but with some defensive merit).

What are the canonical hands for east and west at this point?

Scoring is IMPed teams.

[Phil]

West sounds like 4432 and a minimum TOx and east sounds like 3325. Easts strength hasn't been defined yet but will be shortly.

This doesn't come out sounding right:

"...we play optional doubles (ie denying the substance to pass a double from P, but with some defensive merit)".

[Jinksy]

Maybe optional isn't the right name. Don't know what is, but we play them as basically showing somewhere in the middle of actively seeking penalties and no interest in penalties.

[mike777]

 Jinksy, on 2016-July-07, 14:44, said:

Maybe optional isn't the right name. Don't know what is, but we play them as basically showing somewhere in the middle of actively seeking penalties and no interest in penalties.

ok but at the very least it sounds confusing or the "transfer blame to partner" convention/treatment.

I give west a 4=4=4=1 hand with 12 hcp

I give east something close to 3=3=1=ATxxxx unknown outside hcp at this point but less than 13 hcp total given unfav vul.

[Jinksy]

 mike777, on 2016-July-07, 17:27, said:

ok but at the very least it sounds confusing or the "transfer blame to partner" convention/treatment.

Why? You might not like the treatment, but it seems no more confusing/blame transferring than an invite - you give partner a choice of two options (or you don't), and he chooses. It lets you penalise on hands where (for eg) they're in a Moyesian, with trumps 3-3.

[mycroft]

Jinksy, invitations/limit raises are the classic "blame transfer" call (and red at IMPs, frequently explained that way at the tables I frequent!)

I don't think Mike is denigrating the call itself (except the "confusing" part, but who doesn't play something "confusing"?); it's a "ha ha only serious"-type joke, like 1♠-2♠; 4♠ being referred to as a "<random pro> Game Try" ("bid game, try to make it") or a slam being "50%" ("either it makes or it doesn't").

[Zelandakh]

 Jinksy, on 2016-July-07, 14:44, said:

Maybe optional isn't the right name. Don't know what is, but we play them as basically showing somewhere in the middle of actively seeking penalties and no interest in penalties.

You are talking about what double would mean but surely the important thing with this agreement is that neither partner can actually show a hand that wants to penalise, so pass is presumably covering that. So East must be showing something along the lines of 2245 and West is denying a hand that would pass a penalty double of 1♦ somehow, say 4423.

If you have some other way of penalising, please feel free to disregard this post. It is not a method I have played so perhaps I am missing the point that the others are seeing for their interpretations.

[PhantomSac]

Pass by east NF.

And as much as I love bluffing the pass of a precision D X or a short C X, at this vul in particular you generally have very good long clubs for this pass or something very weak since it's very risky to pass with a good hand when you might have game.