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What is 3 Diamonds? 2/1 ACBL

#1 User is offline   dickiegera 

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Posted 2016-June-29, 22:28




We play 2 to be 4th suit forcing to game

What is the meaning of 3?

Thank you
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2016-June-30, 01:26

5-5 invitational, 5-5 GF, or some sort of spade raise, depending on agreements. If 2d is a GF I would assume 5-5 inv.
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#3 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-June-30, 18:35

Splinter raise of .
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 02:32

5-5 GF is standard on mayeur cinquieme land.
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#5 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 04:19

If you play 2D as GF then I would take 3D to be a splinter in support of spades (this is the Bridge Magazine standard system used in its Bidding Challenge treatment). Of course it could have other meanings, by agreement
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#6 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 07:35

If 2D is game forcing, the only commonly seen agreements are the following:

1. Splinter raise to 3S showing shortness in diamonds (direct shortness show);

2. Splinter raise to 3S showing shortness in clubs (indirect shortness show by bidding the fragment);

3. 5 or 6 hearts plus 5 diamonds with highly construtive to invitational values (e.g., 9 or 10 HCP) - i.e., natural and non-forcing.

You need to discuss this auction and decide as a partnership. However, without discussion, I would think he last alternative should be assumed for two reasons:

1. There is no way to show this hand - you have to punt with 2NT which is a pretty serious distortion of the distributional nature of your hand as well as an overbid in terms of the honor strength.

2. If an undiscussed bid arises and it could conceivably have a natural meaning, then the partnership default agreement SHOULD be that the bid is natural until it is discussed and agreed to be defined otherwise.
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#7 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 10:21

The last post, which is completely reasonable, just highlights how different players have different views on what is "normal". I think the main lesson of the hand is not to make bids that are potentially ambiguous, particularly with an unfamiliar partner. So in this case, if you have a splinter either bid 4D, which I think nearly all experienced players will recognise as showing a shortage, or make a simple raise. With the 55 hand either bid and rebid diamonds, with the risk of getting too high, or find another bid, even if it not the perfect one.
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#8 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 11:01

View PostSteveMoe, on 2016-June-30, 18:35, said:

Splinter raise of .


This is common mistake to take it as splinter, since 4 is splinter. Unless of course you agree to play both of them as splinter and require different strength for each.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#9 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 11:08

View PostCaitlynne, on 2016-July-01, 07:35, said:

If 2D is game forcing, the only commonly seen agreements are the following:

......
.......

3. 5 or 6 hearts plus 5 diamonds with highly construtive to invitational values (e.g., 9 or 10 HCP) - i.e., natural and non-forcing.

You need to discuss this auction and decide as a partnership. However, without discussion, I would think he last alternative should be assumed for two reasons:

1. There is no way to show this hand - you have to punt with 2NT which is a pretty serious distortion of the distributional nature of your hand as well as an overbid in terms of the honor strength.



Unless you play XYZ.


"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#10 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 11:11

Stephen TU explained reasonable meanings of what 3 can be.
In addition to to his list I can add

4+6 par bid (weak hand - sign off) You do not need this if you play xyz though.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#11 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 16:12

View PostGrahamJson, on 2016-July-01, 04:19, said:

If you play 2D as GF then I would take 3D to be a splinter in support of spades (this is the Bridge Magazine standard system used in its Bidding Challenge treatment). Of course it could have other meanings, by agreement


In the old BWS, 2 was forcing for only 1 round and 3 was a 5-5 game force. 2 rebidding 3 was invitational.

The new BWS 2017 changed so all 4th suit bids are game forcing (by unpassed hand). So far, 3 (or 3 if 4th suit was clubs) hasn't been clarified but IMO should be invitational since there isn't a way to show an invitational hand otherwise.

BWS 2017 doesn't use XYZ unless opener rebids 1NT.
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#12 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 16:22

View Postjohnu, on 2016-July-01, 16:12, said:

BWS 2017 doesn't use XYZ unless opener rebids 1NT.



You can not use XYZ if opener rebids 1 NT. It is called 2 way check-back, minor forcing. (some call it XYNT)

XYZ indicates that 3 different suits is bid at 1 level. Not NT.

Of course they are almost twin conventions.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#13 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 16:35

View PostMrAce, on 2016-July-01, 16:22, said:

You can not use XYZ if opener rebids 1 NT. It is called 2 way check-back, minor forcing. (some call it XYNT)


Google your typical sources.

1X 1Y
1Z

1Z is any rebid at the 1 level.
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#14 User is offline   gane32000 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 16:54

Limit bid in spades???
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#15 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 18:57

View PostMrAce, on 2016-July-01, 16:22, said:

You can not use XYZ if opener rebids 1 NT. It is called 2 way check-back, minor forcing. (some call it XYNT)

XYZ indicates that 3 different suits is bid at 1 level. Not NT.

Of course they are almost twin conventions.


to be fair playing XYZ then any 1x1y1z including nt is still the xyz convention.

In XYZ 3d is not only game force but shows slam interest, now granted in XYZ this would be a very rare auction in fact so rare I doubt I have ever seen it, which is why I did not bother to post it earlier.
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#16 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 19:46

View PostMrAce, on 2016-July-01, 11:01, said:

This is common mistake to take it as splinter, since 4 is splinter. Unless of course you agree to play both of them as splinter and require different strength for each.

..or 4 showing a void :rolleyes:
Playing 4 as the "first" splinter wastes control bid space unnecessarily.
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
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#17 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 20:50

View PostSteveMoe, on 2016-July-01, 19:46, said:

..or 4 showing a void :rolleyes:
Playing 4 as the "first" splinter wastes control bid space unnecessarily.


Not really. Splinter hands in this auction are very rare. I would never spare this bid for it.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#18 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2016-July-01, 20:50

dbl post
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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