[Phil]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-22, 02:55, said:

My point is that I have no reason to suspect that it's my opponents' hand, I'm close to average points and playable in 3 suits with more defence than I would like. Partner is too likely to take a phantom.

In 3rd seat it's an obvious preempt.

You have a spade void. You have very little defense.

The nice thing about a void is that it means you have cards in other suits but this isn't a disincentive to bid. I can't believe preempting is more attractive if we held 1336?

[the_clown]

100% agree with Phil, passing is not an option for me with this hand NV.

[Caitlynne]

I cannot say it is definitely right or wrong to preempt with 3C, but I can share my philosophy on how to judge whether a holding is suitable for preempting.

Whenever you consider a preempt with a non-textbook holding, you need to consider the arguments for and against the preempt. With this hand, there are lots of negatives:

1. You only have 6 clubs. A 3-level preempt strongly suggests a 7 card suit.

2. The long suit (clubs) is not really strong. Perhaps KQJTxx would be a 6 card suit worthy of a 3 level preempts; KJTxxx is not nearly as good. Think about whether partner will be disappointed in a 3NT contract holding a high club honor doubleton. The KQJTxx suit will be welcomed as it is sure to produce 6 tricks. Things are not so happy with Ax or Qx opposite KJTxxx.

3. A preempt makes it difficult to explore for fit in another suit. For this reason, the fewer other suits in which the hand might play well, the more attractive it is to preempt. Ideally, your hand should be suitable for no other suit as trump. It might be reasonable to preempt when your hand might support another suit as trump well. But this hand is suitable for the trump suit to be hearts or diamonds or clubs. That is a strong argument against preempting. On the other hand, at least you don't have good support for spades!

The two things 3C has going for it are (1) it MIGHT make things more difficult for the opponents than for partner and (2) you really have very little defense and relatively great offensive potential. (A suit headed by the Ace is not as good for preempting as one headed by the King (or even Queen) simply because the Ace has good potential to take a DEFENSIVE trick.

If partner is a passed hand and you are in 3rd chair, then 3C has much more going for it as it is clear the balance of power lies with the opponents.

In summary, there seem to be more drawbacks to a first seat preempt than there are benefits, so I would choose to call Pass with this hand in first or second (or fourth) chair. In third chair, I would be tempted to preempt except at unfavorable vulnerability (unless I were playing MatchPoints - in which case the preempt, while risky, has less downside than at IMPs).

[m1cha]

Oceanss, on 2016-June-21, 15:20, said:

Assume you play IMP challenge aga friend, or an IMP team game, no barometer or alike. Your side is white and opps are red and you get this as a dealer:
♠-- ♥QJx ♦Jxxx ♣KJT8xx
.
Question one: what is your bid?? Do you preempt? If you play preempts rule 2 and 3 can you afford a "little lie"?

The suit is one card short but with 3/5 top honors it is not that bad and we are not vulnerable. Yes, I can afford a little lie.

Why I really want to preempt here:
I have a void in spades, that is 13 cards out, an average of 4.3 going to my partner, that is, the opponents probably have a 9-card fit in spades.
I have three cards in heards, 10 cards out, an average of 3.3 going to my partner, that is, the opponents more likely have a good fit in hearts than we.
-> Definitely preepmpt here, this is what preempts are for.

And I don't share the view that a preempt is making life difficult for my partner. The opposite is true. A preempt shows a very narrow choice of distributions. Partner usually can make not only a good guess of what we can play but also a good guess of what the opponents can play. A better guess than the opponents can make themselves, at least initially. So partner is often in a position to try to make sure opps don't get where they want to be.

Okay, so partner is strong and may want to check out a 5-3 fit in hearts? 3♣ - 3♥(forcing) - 4♥. Done.

Oceanss, on 2016-June-21, 15:20, said:

Question two: If opener passed, how bidding should go? Pard was dealt: AT9 AK98x AKx Ax
.
I ask this is because I'd have no clue how to bid this hand if I as opener passed and pard shows balanced 22-24 HCP.

I would probably bid 3♣ over 2♣ but anyway. If the bidding started 2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT for some reason, I would jump to 6♣ with most partners right away due to a lack of more scientific means. We have a total of 30 - 32 HCPs and a long suit and a void, this is probably the right spot.

With one partner, if the bidding started as above, we have defined a special sequence using voidwood, it would go
2♣ - 2♦ -
2NT - 3♠* -
4♦** - 4♠^# -
5♣^## - 5♥^& -
5♠^&& - 6♣ -
- -
* one or two minor suits
** preference
^# Voidwood for both minors
^## 1 or 4 keycards, that is, ♥A, ♦AK, ♣A.
^& asking for the ♦♣Qs
^&& none
Actually we have never used this but here it would help us to reach more scientifically a place where a good guess would have led us also, if you see the point.

[neilkaz]

the_clown, on 2016-June-22, 13:32, said:

100% agree with Phil, passing is not an option for me with this hand NV.

I open 3♣ in first seat as it preempts two opps and doesn't prevent PD from bidding something with a good hand.

[GrahamJson]

Look at it another way. Assuming that you play a 3C response to an opening one bid as weak, would you bid it on this hand? You certainly wouldn't opposite 1H or 1D as you have already found a good fit. You might opposite 1S, but I think 1NT more likely as a better option to keep the bidding low and finding a fit.

So, if you would not respond 3C why open it when partner could easily have an opening hand?

One other factor is, who are the opps? Off beat pre-empts are common in high level play because you can rely on oppo to bid to the best contract (well, generally). Playing on BBO that is rarely the case. Why make things difficult for them when they are perfectly able to do that for themselves?

Finally, why be too concerned about oppo buying the contract when three suits look like they will be breaking badly? Exchange two of your diamonds for spades and a pre-empt makes far more sense.

[helene_t]

Why play preemptive openings at all if you don't want to preempt with this hand? The hand is perfect.

[Cyberyeti]

Phil, on 2016-June-22, 10:31, said:

You have a spade void. You have very little defense.

The nice thing about a void is that it means you have cards in other suits but this isn't a disincentive to bid. I can't believe preempting is more attractive if we held 1336?

Defense is something you share with partner, how is their 8 or 9 card spade fit going to break ? You could easily be exchanging a plus from their spade contract for a minus in 3♣.

[broze]

I bid 3♣ and don't consider it close at all.

Pass is wet. 1♣ is another planet

[Tramticket]

Partner might want to bid 3NT over our 3C opening, so this depends on what partner expects from a 3C opening. If partner expects you to hold two top honours in first seat then you can't really open 3C. My partners know that I pre-empt often and will have no such expectation. I bid 3C.

[In third seat I would be considering 4C!]

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2016-June-23, 02:54, said:

Why play preemptive openings at all if you don't want to preempt with this hand? The hand is perfect.

The perfect bid is but a shadow. If Plato had written on bridge he would have said this.

Here are a couple of recent experiences.
Hand A: Partner interfered and the opponents landed in 3NT instead of 4S. Too bad, since spades split 5-0, 3NT made , 4S went down.
Hand B: I interfered. They found their nine card fit and played in it. Missing the trump queen, declarer played me for a stiff instead of playing for the drop. He was right.

Michael Rosenberg, and probably a lot of other people, once noted that if the opponents eventually buy the contract, you will regret every bit of information that you have given them during the bidding. That seems relevant here. The opponents are not going to die when I open 3C. If partner has several clubs, we might then buy the contract. That would be good. Or maybe it would be good. But he won't always have the right cards.

Of course there are hands where it goes the other way. Recently it began P-P to me and I had a "perfect" weak 2D opening. But we were playing Flannery. So, taking a shot, I opened 3D. We played in a miraculously undoubled 4D but even doubled it would have been fine, off 2 non-vul, since they can make 4S.

So I play preempts and I preempt a fair amount. But not always. And for me, not here. I promise not to say I told you so if you do it and it goes wrong.

On this particular deal, if the opponents come in with their spades it will be easier to find 6C if I start with 3C. If the auction were to begin, say, Pass-(2S)-X-(4S) I suppose it could all get a bit iffy. Might be easier if I start 3C.

I don't see 3C as either perfect or crazy, it's a choice. I pass.

[Oceanss]

wow, such variety in answers and most so well agrumented.. tons to learn from this subject.
Just for fun, let me tell u traveller stats:
2 tables under game,
6 in 4H
2 in 3N
1 in 4S x-1 by opps
1 in 6c
2 in 6h
1 in 7c (us)
and last in 7N

now you may understand why i needed your help - i thank you all ! ♥