BBO Discussion Forums: Cuebidding and the ace of trumps - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Cuebidding and the ace of trumps

#1 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-June-14, 19:42

Generally there are two main approaches I use to reach a slam. If keycards are all I need to know, use blackwood. If the response wouldn't help (2 losers in a suit, or a void and I need to know which ace partner has), I can start cuebidding.

What if I need to know if partner has the Ace (or King) of trumps?



Maybe there are other/better ways of getting to this point, but what now? If partner has the ace of hearts, I want to bid a grand slam; if not, I want to stop at the small slam. Bidding 4NT won't help me (unless there is a way to continue cuebidding after a 5D response); bidding 4S will allow partner to show the ace of clubs but by then it's too late to bid blackwood.

Perhaps this is the reason exclusion blackwood was invented - but are there any more standard approaches to figuring this out?
0

#2 User is offline   kenrexford 

  • Brain Farts and Actual Farts Increasing with Age
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,586
  • Joined: 2005-September-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lima, Allen County, North-West-Central Ohio, USA
  • Interests:www.limadbc.blogspot.com editor/contributor

Posted 2016-June-14, 19:56

The answer is rather simple. Buy a baseball bat. Use that baseball bat to beat some sense into your oartner. When he wakes up, explain bidding to him.

If you had garbage, you would hear his 1H call and bid 4H. 4th suit and then 2H begged him to use the remaining 2 level, the entire 3 level, and the partial 4 level to discuss things. Instead, he blasted 4H, showing a club-heart two-suiter that a New York hooker would turn down.

If partner had made a helpful cue, like maybe 3C, you could cue 3D, and he could cue 3H. Not many people cuebid a trump Jack, so you would know that he hsd the heart Ace at that point.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
0

#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,070
  • Joined: 2003-May-14

Posted 2016-June-14, 20:42

Baseball bats won't do much if partner is a robot. Not everyone plays cue bids in trumps like Ken. In that case one either uses exclusion, or you use extended response structures to 5nt Josephine, 6 level responses to show trump honors but not 2/top 3.
0

#4 User is offline   echo25 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: 2015-February-25

Posted 2016-June-15, 00:51

Why don't you bid 5NT - asking high honors in trumps? Partner has an ace so he bids 7h.
0

#5 User is offline   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-June-15, 01:30

The standard meaning of 5NT is to ask for 2 of the top 3. I did actually choose to bid 5NT in case Gib's response could tell me something useful - but the response was simply a 6H 'denial'. Using 6C and 6D as StephenTu suggests to provide more information does seem like a good way to go in general.

And yes, that is true regarding the jump to 4H - even after 3H, using first-round control bids would allow 3S - 4C - 4NT to work as well. I guess my best option given the constraints of Gib would be to just bid 4NT and hope for two aces to save a guess.
0

#6 User is offline   GrahamJson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 560
  • Joined: 2014-October-11

Posted 2016-June-15, 01:47

You can 5NT with step responses, much like Blackwood, I.e. 6C=no top honour, 6D=1 top honour, 6H=2. Problem solved.
0

#7 User is offline   fourdad 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 268
  • Joined: 2013-March-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Florida
  • Interests:Bridge, Football, Coaching, Family, Writing

Posted 2016-June-15, 05:15

imo, the second that N bids 1H, S is the captain of the hand. At that point, the S hand values at 25 points + N at 13.
What is the problem?

Bid 4NT, pd shows 2 aces, bid 7.
How is this a bad plan?
0

#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,902
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2016-June-15, 05:43

View Postfourdad, on 2016-June-15, 05:15, said:

imo, the second that N bids 1H, S is the captain of the hand. At that point, the S hand values at 25 points + N at 13.
What is the problem?

Bid 4NT, pd shows 2 aces, bid 7.
How is this a bad plan?


It's a bad plan when partner shows one ace.

Does he have Axxx, KQJxx or Jxxx and AKQxx

One of the normal step responses to 5N is

1: no top hon
2: Q
3: K or A
4: K or A and extra length

And you compress 1 and 2 if lacking space, so 1-1-1-5(exclusion) or 5N (GSF either now or delayed) should get the job done.

We actually use 5 as GSF with hearts agreed to allow room for the full set of steps
1

#9 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2016-June-15, 06:26

I agree with the step responses to 5 NT GSF. At the very least, 6 can be no high honor, 6 of agreed suit 1 high honor, 7 of agreed suit 2 or more.
The only time you have some problem figuring out if pard has a high honor is when the agreed suit is
0

#10 User is offline   ggwhiz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Joined: 2008-June-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-June-15, 07:14

Bidding problems with robots..... Really?
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
0

#11 User is offline   silvr bull 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 253
  • Joined: 2012-November-11

Posted 2016-June-15, 10:18

With partnership agreement, my Silver convention solves the op problem easily. After 1C-1D, and 1H 4S would be Kickback to ask for aces with Hs as trump. That leaves the jump to 4NT free to ask about trump quality. 4NT would also ask about trump honors immediately after a weak 2D or 2H, or an opening preempt of 3C or 3D or 3H (since 4S would be Kickback for H). The responses (with either C or D or H as agreed trump) would be 5C=0 (or 1 if opener has only a 3 card suit), 5D=1, 5H=AQ or KQ, 5S=A&K with no extra length, 5NT=A&K with more length than shown in the earlier bidding, and 6C=3. When S are the agreed trump suit, 4NT asks for aces, but a jump to 5C could ask for trump honors, with responses similar to the above. There is more about the Silver convention in the 2013 link below:

http://www.bridgebas...t-trump-honors/

Good luck teaching the robot to bid Silver!
0

#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,902
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2016-June-15, 10:36

View Postsilvr bull, on 2016-June-15, 10:18, said:

With partnership agreement, my Silver convention solves the op problem easily. After 1C-1D, and 1H 4S would be Kickback to ask for aces with Hs as trump. That leaves the jump to 4NT free to ask about trump quality. 4NT would also ask about trump honors immediately after a weak 2D or 2H, or an opening preempt of 3C or 3D or 3H (since 4S would be Kickback for H). The responses (with either C or D or H as agreed trump) would be 5C=0 (or 1 if opener has only a 3 card suit), 5D=1, 5H=AQ or KQ, 5S=A&K with no extra length, 5NT=A&K with more length than shown in the earlier bidding, and 6C=3. When S are the agreed trump suit, 4NT asks for aces, but a jump to 5C could ask for trump honors, with responses similar to the above. There is more about the Silver convention in the 2013 link below:

http://www.bridgebas...t-trump-honors/

Good luck teaching the robot to bid Silver!


If you play 4 as kickback, it's more normal to use 4N as exclusion with a spade void, but I suppose you can bid 3 then 4 as that.
0

#13 User is offline   Caitlynne 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 238
  • Joined: 2015-October-09

Posted 2016-June-15, 11:30

This is a challenging hand for sure and it was a clear error for the weaker hand to jump to 4H - effectively preempting the unlimited hand of bidding space that might (and was) needed - but even so, there is a reasonable strategy/solution.

Just cue bid. Partner's ability to cooperate will focus attention on the trump suit.

After 4H, cue bid 4S. Surely 5C will follow and you can continue with a cue bid of 5D. Partner may bid 5H. And now you can continue again with a cue bid of 6D. You don't continue with 5S as this suggests you are leaving room for a cue in diamonds or clubs. 6D makes it clear you are worried about trumps while your trumps are strong enough to make 6H safe.

Well, with the Ace of trumps, raising to 7H is easy.

One more comment: The raise to 4H was the bid of someone who does not understand the Principle of Fast Arrival. Fast Arrival is appropriate only when partner has limited his/her values. You never jump to a sign-off in game if partner is unlimited because you don't want to preempt partner if partner has slammish values where the 5 level MIGHT not be safe.
0

#14 User is offline   Phil 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,092
  • Joined: 2008-December-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Texas, USA
  • Interests:Mountain Biking

Posted 2016-June-15, 13:05

I really don't consider using RKC to be a serious crime. If partner shows you two it's great news.
Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
0

#15 User is offline   allias 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: 2014-February-05

Posted 2016-June-16, 05:07

The reason this particular hand is difficult is south at his second bid (the sequence shown would deny 4 hearts at this point)

As 1S is 4th suit force 2S would show first round spade control and agree hearts and initiate a cue bid sequence

North would now bid 3C to show 1 first round control.

Now an ace enquiry would reveal whether north held the heart ace (with a robot it may not help as it might show the ace it had already cue bid for all I know)
0

#16 User is offline   Jinksy 

  • Experimental biddicist
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,907
  • Joined: 2010-January-02
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-June-16, 05:30

View Postallias, on 2016-June-16, 05:07, said:

The reason this particular hand is difficult is south at his second bid (the sequence shown would deny 4 hearts at this point)

As 1S is 4th suit force 2S would show first round spade control and agree hearts and initiate a cue bid sequence


Posted Image
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
0

#17 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,902
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2016-June-16, 06:29

View Postallias, on 2016-June-16, 05:07, said:

The reason this particular hand is difficult is south at his second bid (the sequence shown would deny 4 hearts at this point)

As 1S is 4th suit force 2S would show first round spade control and agree hearts and initiate a cue bid sequence

North would now bid 3C to show 1 first round control.

Now an ace enquiry would reveal whether north held the heart ace (with a robot it may not help as it might show the ace it had already cue bid for all I know)


2 would be a straightforward splinter for us, why should 1 deny 4 hearts, absolutely standard way of making a forcing raise and keeping the bidding low.
0

#18 User is offline   allias 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: 2014-February-05

Posted 2016-June-16, 10:17

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-June-16, 06:29, said:

2 would be a straightforward splinter for us, why should 1 deny 4 hearts, absolutely standard way of making a forcing raise and keeping the bidding low.


Two points: (1)3S is a splinter(double jump, as is standard practice)

(2)If a major is not supported immediately it implies no support
e.g. 1H 3H, 1H 1S 2S, 1S 2NT(jacoby),1NT 2D 3H, 1S 4c etc.
0

#19 User is offline   masse24 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 341
  • Joined: 2009-April-01
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago Suburbs

Posted 2016-June-16, 10:39

View Postallias, on 2016-June-16, 10:17, said:


(2)If a major is not supported immediately it implies no support
e.g. 1H 3H, 1H 1S 2S, 1S 2NT(jacoby),1NT 2D 3H, 1S 4c etc.


1 does not deny support. Instead, it says, "We belong in game (or more), please further describe your hand. My next bid will tell you why I used an artificial GF."
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin
0

#20 User is online   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,902
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2016-June-16, 10:47

View Postallias, on 2016-June-16, 10:17, said:

Two points: (1)3S is a splinter(double jump, as is standard practice)

(2)If a major is not supported immediately it implies no support
e.g. 1H 3H, 1H 1S 2S, 1S 2NT(jacoby),1NT 2D 3H, 1S 4c etc.


May be standard for you, not in many many other peoples' worlds.

1-change of suit-any-4 is a very standard way of showing a 13 count with 4 hearts in old fashioned Acol for example where Jacoby 2N is not played with 4 card majors.

Round here 2 as a splinter IF 1 is 4SF (some play it natural) is fairly standard
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users