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Gazzilli

#1 User is offline   QAY 

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  Posted 2005-April-09, 04:09

Can anyone please explain to me Gazzilli convention, or give me links on english :P
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Posted 2005-April-09, 18:27

Try "The Motherload of Conventions" @ www.chemistry.ohio-state.edu/~heng/personal/conv/c.ind.html Hope I got this right: good luck
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#3 User is offline   cwiggins 

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Posted 2005-April-10, 07:33

You can get a much more complete explanation at http://www.padovabri...ie/gazzilli.htm. But the explanation is in Italian.

However, if you don't have an Italian speaking relative (like me), a number of web sites will do a machine translation of the page--you could try http://babelfish.altavista.com/--which provide a result good enough to understand what's going on.


Or: you can go to http://www.geocities...neill_2000/sys/ and open up the description of Ambra. Although not identified as Gazzilli, the 1-1NT-2 and 1-1NT-2 sequences seem to be Gazzilli.

Comments in rec.games.bridge suggest that there are multiple versions of Gazzilli. One variation is to use it to limit most rebids other than 2 to 15 or 16 HCP. (See Ambra.) My limited knowledge suggests that this is the dominant version. Other versions use the room to separate strong 5-5 from strong 5-4. (Go to rec.games.bridge and search for "Hinden" and "Gazzilli". That will put you in a thread that discusses this variation and some others.)

Lastly if you search rec.games.bridge for just "Gazzilli" you'll find several articles that include descriptions.
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#4 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-April-11, 02:58

Gazzilli convention is a tool used for strong(ish) 1M opener hand when responder bids a 1-over-1.

1H:1S
or

1M:1NT (forcing or not).


In both of these sequences, 2C rebid by opener is EITHER a natural 2C rebid OR a 15+ hand.

Over the 2C rebid, responder is required to rebid 2D with any 8+ hand: in this case, opener will make a weak rebid if his 2C was natural, otherwise he'll investigate or force to game, either by natural methods or using full relay systems.

If responder is very weak, he will skip the 2D rebid, 99% of the times giving a preference to opener's major, OR by bidding his suit.
WARNING: there are different agreements of which bid use when responder is 2-suiter in misfit with minors (some people use 2NT), so there is no real "standard" for misfits hands, and each pship will have to choose the most comfortable scheme.

The Gazzilli convention is very useful for hands too weak for a 3-level GF reverse but too strong for a minmum rebid at the 2 level: especially those 15-17 hands with a bad suit, that do not want to jump rebid at the 3 level.
Using Gazzilli, one may as well give up the need to open 1NT with a 5 card major, since the rebid is not a problem.

Also, many pairs in Italy use the Gazzilli 2C for ALL strong 1M openings: that frees the jump to 3 of a suit and 2NT rebid for distributional hands:
one common scheme is that
- 3x rebid is a distributional reverse (5-5.5 hcp) with good suit(s) : 6+ good single suiter or 55+ if 2-suited;
- 2NT is distributional reverse with 6+M and a side 4 bagger (those hands when you don't know whether to jump rebid your major, losing the side suit or to show a side suit, but showing it at the 2-level wd be an underbid and showing it at the 3 level would guarantee 55);
A "Power-reverse" (17+) would rebid 2C, so these jumps are limited, they show only shape and concentrated values.

The Gazzilli 2C fits especially well in the Fantunes scheme (all 1-level bids forcing), when the 2C rebid is the start of relays for game/slam.

Finally, I want to emphasize that 2C gazzilli is more a "concept" rather than a welldefined convention: just as well as there are as many forms of Stayman (or Checkback, or whatever) as the number of bridge players, every pair plays a customized version of Gazzilli (relay versions, simple versions, etc etc).
The general principle, though, applies for all.
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#5 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-April-12, 08:40

Here are the details of one version of Gazzilli I have found.
The positive sequences development features a symmetric relay structure, I guess someone will be happy here :)


DEVELOPMENTS AFTER POSITIVE RESPONDER 2D REBIDS


1H 1S
2C(natural or generic strong) 2D

...- 2H = minimum H+C
...- 2S = strong, 3 cards in S;2NT relays for shape
........-3m = nat. 4 cards in suit bid
........-3H = 16-18 5332
........-3S = 6+H
........-3H = 19-20 5332
...- 2NT = 55, 3C asks side minor suit
...- 3m = 4 cards in suit bid WITHOUT 3 spades
...- 3H= 5332 16-18, WITHOUT 3 spades
...- 3S= 6+H, WITHOUT 3 spades, 17-19
...- 3NT= 19-20 5332, WITHOUT 3 spades



1H 1NT
2C(natural or generic strong) 2D

...- 2H = minimum H+C
...- 2S = 19-20, 4 cards in S; with 16-18 reverse immediately to 2S without going via Gazzilli
...- 2NT = 55 18-20, 3C asks side minor suit
...- 3m = 4 cards in suit bid
...- 3H= 5332 16-18
...- 3S= 6+H 17-19
...- 3NT= 19-20 5332


1S 1NT
2C(natural or generic strong) 2D

...- 2H = strong S+H
...- 2S = weak S+C
...- 2NT = 55 18-20, 3C asks side minor suit
...- 3m = 4 cards in suit bid
...- 3H= 5332 16-18
...- 3S= 6+S 17-19
...- 3NT= 19-20 5332



WEAK RESPONDER'S REBIDS

1H 1S
2C ?

...- 2H = weak pref
...- 2S = weak 5+ spades, short in H
...- 2 NT= 3-suiter or similar
...- 3m =weak raptor hand 4S + 6m


1C 1 NT
2C
...- 2H = weak pref
...- 2S = weak 3=1=4=5 shape
...- 2S = weak 3=1=5=4 shape or 55 minors
...- 3m =weak 6+ single suiter


1S 1NT
2C
...- 2H = weak natural long H
...- 2S = weak pref
...- 2NT = 3-suiter or similar
...- 3m =weak 6+ single suiter
"Bridge is like dance: technique's important but what really matters is not to step on partner's feet !"
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#6 User is offline   cwiggins 

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Posted 2005-April-17, 12:55

A friend just told me that the May 2005 issue of "Bridge World" has an article on Gazilli by Giovnni Bobbio. Usually the articles in "Bridge World" are pretty good.

You can order the issue from www.bridgeworld.com.
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#7 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2005-April-17, 13:05

Giovanni is sometimes logged on BBO as "pilogen", usually for Vugraphs where Italy plays. He is very friendly, you can ask him info when he is logged.
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#8 User is offline   ritong 

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Posted 2005-April-17, 23:21

hello all :-)

i allow myself to expose a personal convention,which i practice for more than 20 years , modestly named " 2riton"(!) and which has obvious relation with gazzilloid idea.

the point is :in a natural system, lots of opener's hands with a 5+ major suit in the 15/19 zone create a rebid problem, assuming the answer is one NT .
this can occur with one suit, if of poor quality . consider any 6322 or 6331 with Qxxxxx as main feature , zoned 15/18 (or even more) .
this can occur with two suits, noone likes to rebid 1 1nt 2 with 12 as well as with 17(18), cause we all know responder will have a pb with fit and no obvious raise .
finally, this almost solves the eternal debate: one NT with 5th major or not.
secondary consequences are numerous, for example responder can bid 1nt(nonforcing) with weak fits, intending to show a real fit if opener shows strength via 2rebid, which is conventional with my stuff.

so, a possible answer to these snags is a conventional 2 rebid, which means " i have cards, but i feel stuck because of no satisfying rebid".

the main difference with Gazz is that i use 2/ openings as two-suited with major+s and opening values , 12/15 (there are developements if opps have the courtesy to leave us alone) .
this suppresses the standard weak two openings, which i think is not such a big deal .
this suppresses the Gazz ambiguity, also..
2rebid = s or cards worries me a bit, instinctively.

naturally, i have dozens of pages of developements :-) this is a rough picture of the baby, just wanted to alimentate the debate; let me know if some of you would be interested in reading more about that stuff.
friendly.
henri

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Posted 2005-June-25, 15:18

ritong, on Apr 18 2005, 01:21 AM, said:

naturally, i have dozens of pages of developements :-) this is a rough picture of the baby, just wanted to alimentate the debate; let me know if some of you would be interested in reading more about that stuff.
friendly.
henri

Hi Henri

I am very intersted in the pages of development. I think this fit very nicely with the system I play.

Ben
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Posted 2005-June-25, 17:38

Mais, oui! SVP
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#11 User is offline   ritong 

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  Posted 2005-June-26, 11:06

ok, i dive .

first , if you play forcing NT or special openings in majors at the two level , better give up now this boring post , cause "riton 2" is not compatible with those.

the general idea is that a 2 rebid by opener after a 1/ opening bid and a 1 NT response expresses a failure of a " satisfying " bid , with no connection to the suit .

we can admit that opener feels "stuck " for his rebid when he has a hand in the strong NT range and, sometimes, upper. this can happen with one suit, two suits or a 5332 shape .

a consequence is that an other rebid than 2 shows a " pure " hand, be it about strength or suit quality if one-suited .

1 1NT
2/ is limited to , say , 15 hcp , as big systems do.

1/ 1NT
3/ shows a suit expecting one loser facing a single.

1/ 1NT
2NT is 18/19 balanced , basically.

1/ 1NT
3 any is not anymore " i m just scared to be dropped at the 2 level ".

if your hand does not fit one of these models, you have a priori a 2 rebid, assuming you do not have an obvious pass, naturally .


ok, the opener bids 2 . what is the responder supposed to do ?

a) responder has a common hand , with no particular length(es) or hidden fit.

he bids 2 , waiting for further info .

:) responder's hand includes a particularity , which can be:

1) a 6+ bagger . he bids it , at the two or three level depending upon his strength (remember , his first bid was 1 NT)

2) a minor 2 suiter , treated via 2/3 NT depending upon strength .

3) a "hidden" fit for opening suit , assuming a direct raise would have been constructive . well, he raises :-)


1 1NT
2 2 6+ , bad hand

1 1NT
2 3 6+ , good hand


1/ 1NT
2 2NT 5+/5+ bad hand

1/ 1NT
2 3NT 5+/5+ good hand


1M 1NT
2 2M "i had a natural fit , too weak for a constructive direct raise".


now, the tool is almost usable for experiment , when we know what to do when opener has a major and s in the low range .
you already suspect that is the reason why level two major openings have to be changed , and rightly so :-)

we see that in next post :P

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Posted 2005-June-26, 13:46

Thank you very much for sharing this, Henri:
This was very generous on your part, and very appreciated.

DHL
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Posted 2005-June-26, 15:12

im not sure I like the idea of jumping over the 2C rebid. Interesting though.
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#14 User is offline   ritong 

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Posted 2005-June-27, 09:06

well, justin , not sure i get what " jumping over the 2!c rebid" means, anyhow here is how it works with / & / hands in the low range .

2 opening means : 5 exactly + 4/5 12/15

2 " " " : 5 " " + 4/5 12/15

the responder can :
- try a new suit , encouraging , not forcing

- chose

- raise major, invite ( not preempt, beware)

- relay with 2NT (game forcing for opener)

facing 2NT , opener bids 3 with 5 cards , 3 of his opening with 5422 bad hand , 3 NT with 5422 good hand , his tripleton with 5431 . quite simple .

next time we see the possible developments after 1M 1nt 2 2 . the tool is already usable, though . it works with common sense , my general idea is not to build extensive boards with every case in it but to provide some concepts wich everybody can use to build more comfortable auctions.

henri.

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Posted 2005-June-27, 09:09

ritong, on Jun 27 2005, 10:06 AM, said:

well, justin , not sure i get what " jumping over the 2!c rebid" means

It means...jumping...over the 2C rebid...

1S-1N
2C-3x where x != clubs. That would be a jump.. over the 2C rebid...
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#16 User is offline   ritong 

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Posted 2005-June-27, 13:36

ah, ok ! :P no problem , the tool is adaptable.

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Posted 2005-June-27, 14:42

Suggestion: If you don't like jumping over 2C, you might want to use a 2D rebid to show values, a-la BART.

Question: Ritong, I assume you play something similar over 1H-1S?

Remark: Giving up on weak 2's imo seems a big price to pay to avoid ambiguity of Gazilli sequences.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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Posted 2005-June-27, 14:51

I am not sure you have given up the weak two if you play multi. I was using mulderberg and multi, but as I became more and more likely to open with ratty hcp but 25 zar's with spades, and 26 otherwise, mulderberg bacame less and less frequent. Think about it 8 hcp with 5-5 and 2 cotrols and a void is 25 zar points, so if one of the majors is spades, I can already open. Give me 10-11 pts, 3 controls, 5-4-3-1 distrbution, and it is an opening bid using ZAR.

So what I am saying is, I have found fewer and fewer chances to use mulderberg, and when I do, the hand is really pretty weak. Mulderberg actually works best wtih hands that have 25 or more ZAR points.

So once you remove multi, and you don't need weak twos, there are lots of other options, but any two suiter hands suffer same limit problem as mulderberg.. you will want to open 1 of something wtih many of them. And the presumed fit ones on 4=4 and weak (Erken's etc), are simply not my style. So Henri's methods make sense for my style ... but I have three secret weapons he doesn't know about. The first is that my one bids are wickedly limited. The second is the opener will never have good four card support for spades (if partner showed that), and the third is partner will not have an acol 2 type bid in his major, so while he may have lots of his major, when he does, it has a limit to it. So I the riton 2 is (I know, everyone will hate this term), psuedo-forcing the way I play it, and I do in fact use it after a forcing 1NT. Responder passes when he would be happy to be in 2C opposite a hand with 17 to 19 balanced (opener was to rebid 2NT), or a long major suit, not suited for acol 2 bid in that major.

My treatment (the riton 2C is fairly new to my system), is on my systems blog at http://inquiry2over1.blogspot.com Look for the articles on Modified Kaplan Inversion and Responding to 1 of a major.

Finally, Riton 2C just fills in with my rebid of 2C after 1D opening bid, which is also forcing already, and my 2C bids when opponents double or overcall any of our opening bids except 1C, which is also forcing.

Ben
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Posted 2005-June-27, 15:14

I agree multi would be best with this system for sure.
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#20 User is offline   ritong 

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Posted 2005-June-28, 02:10

yes, hannie , it works also after 1 pass 1 , although less easily due to the unlimited responder , the "forcing or not'" aspect being tougher to handle.

about "std" weak 2s , the debate is widely open . my position is i prefer to show two suits rather than one if the auction is to be competitive . as a caricatural example , imagine you hold seven solid s & an outside goodie , and it starts 2 pass 5 . don t smile, it happened more than one time to my opps :-)

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