[Elyk25]

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With south's hand-- how would you bid? At second chance to bid would you bid?

Me and partner were having a debate if 4D was the right bid. I was partial to bidding 4H (forcing me to pass or correct to diamonds), because I felt the hand was too good with approx 9 quick tricks to risk missing game for a 4 diamond partscore. Looking at South's hand, I see 9 tricks off the top-- if North has just one diamond or heart honor (or the ace of spades), and some support this hand is cold for game.

Here's the full deal:

(North)
♠ Q 7 6 4
♥ K 6 2
♦ 5 4 2
♣ 9 7 5

(West)
♠ A J 8 5
♥ Q 9 5
♦ —
♣ A 10 8 6 4 2

(East)
♠ K 10 9 3
♥ 8
♦ Q 9 8 6
♣ K Q J 3

(South)
♠ 2
♥ A J 10 7 4 3
♦ A K J 10 7 3
♣ —

It turns out par was to sacrifice 6H down 1 by South over a 6C contract by East/West. We got lucky somewhat-- West foolishly not bidding to the spade game (letting my get the 4D bid in), and the inability E/W to find their club fit at least let us get a positive score in a final contract of 4S down two. However, we were able to make 5H over them if South was declarer (we can be held to 4 if North declares).

I feel like one of the major problems we had was that even if E/W stopped bidding it was hard for North to convey support with such few points (and semi-long spades) without knowing the South was 6-6 with very solid suits at the 4 level, without South bidding game blindly.

[Stephen Tu]

Maybe 3nt is the call?

To me, bidding one of the suits shows extra length in that suit but not the other, and double is good hand with only 5 cd suits probably. So that leaves 3nt, which I don't think can be to play having bid unu2nt.

[Tramticket]

I agree with Stephen.

[rhm]

 Tramticket, on 2016-May-17, 15:15, said:

I agree with Stephen.

I disagree with Stephen.
I want to be in game and maybe it gets time to reveal that you have a six card major.
After all the 4♠ bid does not come as a complete surprise.
My intention is to bid 4♥ followed by 5♦.
Fiddling around with artificial notrump bids can be overdone. Believe me, it works much better in the postmortem than at the table.
I also like 3NT to be a suggestion to play whenever possible.
Here it should show a strong hand with a spade stopper and a very good six card diamond suit and a not so solid heart suit.
♠Kx ♥AQxxx ♦AKQxxx might fit the bill.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

4♣ instead of 2NT strikes me as a realistic possibility and saves us from having the last guess.

[rhm]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-May-18, 03:56, said:

4♣ instead of 2NT strikes me as a realistic possibility and saves us from having the last guess.

Certainly better than 3NT.
I still like to tell partner unambiguously that I got a six card major.
I do not see why we should have a guess over 4♥. After all partner knows we have a red two-suiter and should he have 2 cards in hearts and 3 cards in diamonds I prefer to play 4♥ if permitted.
Why complicate things?
4♣ would be more appropriate with six diamonds and only 5 hearts and a hand were we do not want to languish in 4♦.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

Is 4C really artificial? Sorry if I'm being dense.

[masse24]

 gwnn, on 2016-May-18, 06:44, said:

Is 4C really artificial? Sorry if I'm being dense.

I agree. I think 4!C could certainly be natural and preemptive.

[Zelandakh]

 gwnn, on 2016-May-18, 06:44, said:

Is 4C really artificial? Sorry if I'm being dense.

Coming from an old-school English background it used to be normal to play that as a distributional red 2-suiter. Perhaps in areas where 5 card majors are popular that would be a good question though. If 4♣ were natural I would strongly consider using 3♠ for that hand rather than as the long suit without spade stopper but it definitely seems better to me to include the 4♣ overcall in 3♠ rather than the reverse if we really feel that we need a 4 level overcall in Opener's suit.

[billw55]

Extreme shape is for offense, I would never pass out 4♠ with this hand.

2NT is fine. At my second call I would try 4♠. It is very unlikely that the opponents will let us play 4♥ so I am not worried about going beyond that. Also denying them a little space may be valuable. And, this communicates the extremity of my hand like no other bid.

edit: how would an immediate 2♠ differ from 2NT? Would 3♠ be natural, or something else? This is an interesting situation.

[Zelandakh]

 billw55, on 2016-May-18, 07:48, said:

Extreme shape is for offense, I would never pass out 4♠ with this hand.

I agree with 2NT. At my second call I would try 4♠. I think it is very unlikely that the opponents will let us play 4♥ so I am not worried about going beyond that. Also denying them a little space may be valuable. Lastly this communicates the extremity of my hand like no other bid.

If we are voluntarily going to the 5 level we should probably start with whichever of 4♠ or 4NT shows the red suits. The question is whether the 4 level is enough at these colours.

[gwnn]

2S is generally played as natural. 3S, not sure, but I think Zel is right that most would take it/agree about it as "bid 3NT if you have a ♠ stop".

[mycroft]

I, too, don't like 4♦. Can't I double 3♠? That can't be penalty, right? I'm worried that 3NT might show 8 runners and an expectation of a black suit stop.

After I bid 2NT, 4♣ can't be natural, right? Or will partner think I have minors now?

This side of the world, I would expect either sandwich NT (ugh) or double and then 4♥.

[neilkaz]

I think I'd have bid a VERY unusual 4NT the first time even at these colors. Having bid 2NT the first time I'll bid 4NT for my second call.

[SteveMoe]

Would much prefer double than 2NT (weaker). Now a later bid by me is descriptive and forcing where necessary.

[gszes]

When we have really good hearts there must be a really really good reason to introduce diamonds. Bidding 4h the 2nd round gets the idea of this hand across pretty well and makes competing at the 5 level a heck of a lot more sane when we can now verify that our diamonds are at least as long as our hearts. Bidding 4d sort of emphasizes the wrong suit and makes a true POC decision much less clear.

[rmnka447]

I'm bidding 4 ♥ on the second round followed by 5 ♦ the next round, if possible. Hopefully, partner will figure out that the hand must be something like 6-6 to bid that much.

[PhilKing]

I think 4♣ on the second round shows this hand pretty accurately indicating:

a) Very strong hand
b) Control in clubs
c) Too distributional for a double

[bigbenvic]

Could 4♣ just be a strong 5-5?

I am bidding 4♥ to show the 6th Heart and since I am bidding again after 2NT then I am very strong, If I was intermediate I'd overcall, and if I was weak I'd 2NT and pass.

I think I'm bidding 5♦ over 4♠ but only as I have both red JT's. It's close to a pass over 4♠ as I am not sure anyone is making. Without the JT's I think it's more likely we could be facing the situation where both sides are past the last making contract but I need so little from pards on this hand that I would bid again, I suspect 5♦ has a better chance than 5♥ too.

[WesleyC]

I prefer to put the opposition under pressure by bidding 4NT on the first round.

Holding such a shapely hand, there is very little chance we can win the auction in 4H so I'm prepared to commit to the 5-level.