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Yet another claim without a statement ACBL, though I don't think it matters

#1 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-May-12, 17:58

NT contract, West is declaring, North is on lead with two tricks remaining. As North is about to lead her good J, West lays the A and the A on the table, not saying a word. North calls the director. North's 13th card is the 13th club. Who gets the last trick?
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#2 User is offline   ddrankin 

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Posted 2016-May-12, 20:25

North.
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#3 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 05:11

Needs more info. Has North previously shown out of diamonds, or does declarer know there are no outstanding diamonds, etc? If not, were the cards laid down together, or deliberately in one particular order (as if to indicate "I'm playing this card to this trick, and the other card to the next trick")?

If we can't save declarer by anything like this, then we rule that declarer discards the wrong Ace (L70D1, L70E1) and North gets both tricks.

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#4 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 08:18

Declarer thinks that N has to lead either a diamond or a club and obviously has forgotten about the jack of hearts. So, there is no reason to assume that W knows what other card N still has, even if she had previously shown out of diamonds. And the order in which the cards are laid down doesn't carry much weight with me, not without a statement. Both tricks to N.
Why, o why find so many players it too difficult to claim properly?
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#5 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 08:21

View Postsanst, on 2016-May-13, 08:18, said:

Declarer thinks that N has to lead either a diamond or a club and obviously has forgotten about the jack of hearts. So, There is no reason to assume that W knows what other card N still has, even if she had previously shown out of diamonds.

There may very well be grounds to think Declarer thought North held 2 clubs rather than a heart and a club. I assume that had Declarer held A + 2 and made the same claim (thinking the diamond good) you would award 1 trick rather then enforcing the discard of the A on the heart.
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 08:42

View Postahydra, on 2016-May-13, 05:11, said:

If we can't save declarer by anything like this, then we rule that declarer discards the wrong Ace (L70D1, L70E1) and North gets both tricks.

It's not our job to save declarer, it's our job to rule as equitably as possible to both sides, giving the benefit of the doubt to, in this case, the defense.

It is unclear what declarer may have known about the the other suits. Declarer did lay both aces down simultaneously.
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#7 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 08:54

Going with ahydra here. Equity, with doubt going to the NOS, is what the TD is supposed to apply. If the guy with the heart Jack cannot have a Diamond, I won't impose an irrational Club pitch upon Declarer. If North might have a Diamond, then he gets both tricks.

BTW: If Declarer did put the Club Ace on the table before the Diamond Ace, it might be evidence that he thought North had two clubs.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 09:21

View Postahydra, on 2016-May-13, 05:11, said:

Needs more info. Has North previously shown out of diamonds, or does declarer know there are no outstanding diamonds, etc? If not, were the cards laid down together, or deliberately in one particular order (as if to indicate "I'm playing this card to this trick, and the other card to the next trick")?If we can't save declarer by anything like this, then we rule that declarer discards the wrong Ace (L70D1, L70E1) and North gets both tricks.
It's worrying that different directors so often rule differently in such simple cases with undisputed facts. If Ahydra is right in law, then the director should ask declarer what he knew about LHO's hand. If West claims he knew North's last card, then the director must assess the evidence and decide whether to believe him. Whereas a declarer who admits he didn't know, is automatically disadvantaged. Again, such rulings allow rationalisers to be "saved" and rewarded. They frustrate and deter honest players.

IMO, laws that unnecessarily rely on mind-reading should be simplified.
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#9 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 09:27

Since declarer has already forgotten that north can cash a winner, I will need a pretty compelling reason to convince me he knows for certain what north's other card is. I would need to know what this alleged reason is in order to judge it. With no reason offered, two tricks to north.
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#10 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 09:36

View Postblackshoe, on 2016-May-13, 08:42, said:

It's not our job to save declarer, it's our job to rule as equitably as possible to both sides, giving the benefit of the doubt to, in this case, the defense.


Poor choice of words on my part I guess, sorry. What I mean is, I would ask declarer and/or review the play so far in an attempt to resolve any doubt about which Ace declarer would keep. If declarer can demonstrate that she knew North was out of diamonds, then she gets one trick, otherwise not. (Of course, if so, declarer could make my life easier by stating this in her claim statement, and I would remind her of this fact.)

Quote

It is unclear what declarer may have known about the the other suits. Declarer did lay both aces down simultaneously.


Then North gets both tricks.

ahydra
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 09:44

View Postblackshoe, on 2016-May-13, 08:42, said:

It is unclear what declarer may have known about the the other suits.

It is only unclear in the OP. The TD can find out via the play of the hand up to this point. Only if it remains unclear should North get both tricks per the "benefit of the doubt" clause.
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#12 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 10:03

View Postaguahombre, on 2016-May-13, 09:44, said:

It is only unclear in the OP. The TD can find out via the play of the hand up to this point. Only if it remains unclear should North get both tricks per the "benefit of the doubt" clause.

I have never seen a director go through the entire play of the hand in a claim case, much less decide, after he has done so, that he knows what declarer knew at the time of the claim.

In law, if declarer knows that her LHO has a club to lead, her line of play statement should reflect that knowledge. In this case, there was no such reflection.

The table director gave declarer the club trick. Incorrectly, IMO.
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#13 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 11:43

Any resolving of the issue of what declarer knew about the remaining card smacks of allowing a modification of the claim after the fact with at blind 50% chance of guessing right and time to come out of their coma.

2 tricks to north and maybe declarer will come around to proper claiming procedure.... eventually but I would always rule so in this case. If they are too good a player to get the discard wrong, how can they not know this basic requirement to state a line of play?
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#14 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 13:22

View Postblackshoe, on 2016-May-13, 10:03, said:

I have never seen a director go through the entire play of the hand in a claim case, much less decide, after he has done so, that he knows what declarer knew at the time of the claim.

I am very sorry, but sometimes (many times actually) a TD simply has to go through the play to rule on a claim.

When I saw your opening post, I expected that it would be a trick question since clearly there is too little information. I expected a follow up coming, something like: "But what if I told you that, previously in the play, declarer had run off 6 diamonds with everyone discarding?" or "But what if I told you that North had previously discarded on the play of the hearts (i.e revoked)?". To me it is rather obvious that the TD decision on many claims depends on the play to the previous tricks.

I am undecided on what I think of the idea that an experienced TD claims that he has never seen a TD go through the play in a claim case: I am torn between Hitchcock and Monty Python.

Rik
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#15 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 13:30

I just asked the OP to my wife (who also is a TD). She needed 10 words only:

I: "How many tricks does declarer get?"
She: "Probably none"
I: "Why can't you be certain?"
She: "Because I don't know how the play went."

I think she summed it up pretty well.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 13:36

I reported what I was told after the event. As for the how the play went business, think whatever you want.
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#17 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 14:20

View Postggwhiz, on 2016-May-13, 11:43, said:

Any resolving of the issue of what declarer knew about the remaining card smacks of allowing a modification of the claim after the fact with at blind 50% chance of guessing right and time to come out of their coma.

2 tricks to north and maybe declarer will come around to proper claiming procedure.... eventually but I would always rule so in this case. If they are too good a player to get the discard wrong, how can they not know this basic requirement to state a line of play?


I am inclined to believe that considering previous play [beyond what was clarified] to be inappropriate. It may make us feel good. But it may contain irregularities like revokes which make previous play possibly 'unreliable'**; and since possibly can disrupt sometimes, it must disrupt every time. And that is sufficient to not consider unclaimed previous play.

**just imagine a 'proven finesse' after a player revokes.
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2016-May-13, 22:26

It's rare that you need to go through the entire play to adjudicate a claim. But the claim law says that the clarification can't include playing one opponent for a card unless his partner has shown out in the suit, so you need to find out enough about the preceding play to knkow if this happened. Usually it's sufficient for the claimant to explain something like "West showed out in clubs 2 tricks ago, so of course I'll finesse East for the Q."

#19 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2016-May-14, 01:06

View Postbarmar, on 2016-May-13, 22:26, said:

It's rare that you need to go through the entire play to adjudicate a claim. But the claim law says that the clarification can't include playing one opponent for a card unless his partner has shown out in the suit, so you need to find out enough about the preceding play to knkow if this happened. Usually it's sufficient for the claimant to explain something like "West showed out in clubs 2 tricks ago, so of course I'll finesse East for the Q."

Correct.
TD should never need to inspect the entire play other than for the purpose of verifying the claimer's statement in case of a dispute.
Unless the claimer states (or implies) with the claim that (s)he "knows", the claim shall be adjudicated on an assumption that (s)he doesn't.
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#20 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2016-May-14, 03:04

Interesting. I should establish the facts, but not too much.
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