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EU Brexit thread

#1 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 12:26

If there is one thing that might cause me to vote out it is Francois Hollande saying "I don't want to scare you, but there will be consequences"
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#2 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 12:44

As an ethnic European (without any particular national identity) living in the UK I obviously have to be strongly in favour of staying. In particular in a time when we have a right-extremist government in the UK so that any constraints the EU imposes on their policies is welcome.

I am not going to come up with any convincing arguments, though. Europe is obviously in a mess - this may not be a rational argument for leaving as UK will still be part of the European mess regardless of the outcome. But it is understandable if people don't have so warm feelings towards the EU, almost regardless of which corner of the EU they live in.

The leave-movement has a coherent message. The stay-movement does not: What the Cons will say about the consequences of leaving or staying will be very different from the message from the pro-EU opposition. So without knowing anything about the issue at all you can already deduce that at least one of the major pro-EU agitators must be lying.
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 14:03

The problem with the debate is that there are basically no facts in it. Nobody knows what pulling out would be like as nobody's done it.

The stay campaign seems to be scaremongering frantically, and it seems they have nothing constructive to say.

If TTIP is going to go through and pulling out will get us out of it, I'd vote out in a heartbeat, it's the most odious thing I've ever seen good for nobody other than US businesses and taking away a lot of sovereignty.
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#4 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 15:42

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-March-03, 14:03, said:

The problem with the debate is that there are basically no facts in it. Nobody knows what pulling out would be like as nobody's done it.

The stay campaign seems to be scaremongering frantically, and it seems they have nothing constructive to say.

If TTIP is going to go through and pulling out will get us out of it, I'd vote out in a heartbeat, it's the most odious thing I've ever seen good for nobody other than US businesses and taking away a lot of sovereignty.



OK if there are no facts why do people in the UK want to leave? It seems weird that there are zero facts in the debate.

I have read of one fact but perhaps this is just wild gossip. Scottish Nationalists have said that a Brexit will trigger another vote for Scottish independence.

If I follow this logic a Brexit may lead to the destruction of the UK as we now know it. Now perhaps this is just idle gossip or not, I don't know. Perhaps this destruction is a good or a bad thing, I don't know.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 16:21

View Postmike777, on 2016-March-03, 15:42, said:

OK if there are no facts why do people in the UK want to leave? It seems weird that there are zero facts in the debate.

I have read of one fact but perhaps this is just wild gossip. Scottish Nationalists have said that a Brexit will trigger another vote for Scottish independence.

If I follow this logic a Brexit may lead to the destruction of the UK as we now know it. Now perhaps this is just idle gossip or not, I don't know. Perhaps this destruction is a good or a bad thing, I don't know.


The Scot nats are desperate for an excuse to call another referendum, I'd ignore that.

Basically parts of the UK want out for lots of different reasons. Even the head of the stay campaign has admitted that EU economic migrants depress unskilled wages. Lots of meddling in areas that people feel should be left to individual countries. A feeling that we wanted (and voted for) economic union, but not what we have in terms of political union. A sense of a bloated bureaucracy trying to run things rather than letting elected politicians do it. The Euro crisis being triggered by negligent accounting practices that let countries into the Euro that should never have been anywhere near it (basically there were entry criteria, but Greece and others were allowed in despite not being close). The EU's inability to get its own accounts signed off for many years. Basically a long list of dissatisfactions with the EU with different people having different issues.
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#6 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 16:26

Adding layers of governance is a well known way to inefficiency and delay. Make that last layer unelected "representatives" and they eventually end up owing allegiance to those that appointed them. Really? The art of decadence at its most stultifying.
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#7 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 17:50

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-March-03, 16:21, said:

The Scot nats are desperate for an excuse to call another referendum, I'd ignore that.

Basically parts of the UK want out for lots of different reasons. Even the head of the stay campaign has admitted that EU economic migrants depress unskilled wages. Lots of meddling in areas that people feel should be left to individual countries. A feeling that we wanted (and voted for) economic union, but not what we have in terms of political union. A sense of a bloated bureaucracy trying to run things rather than letting elected politicians do it. The Euro crisis being triggered by negligent accounting practices that let countries into the Euro that should never have been anywhere near it (basically there were entry criteria, but Greece and others were allowed in despite not being close). The EU's inability to get its own accounts signed off for many years. Basically a long list of dissatisfactions with the EU with different people having different issues.


OK

thanks for taking the time to reply. So how do you vote and why?

btw how do you feel about a breakup of the UK and how likely is it in say the next ten years?
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 18:21

View Postmike777, on 2016-March-03, 17:50, said:

OK

thanks for taking the time to reply. So how do you vote and why?

btw how do you feel about a breakup of the UK and how likely is it in say the next ten years?


I still haven't decided how I vote. I think we should be in a European Economic union of some type, but don't like the EU as it stands.

I don't think a UK breakup will happen. I think more and more powers will devolve to Wales/Scotland.
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#9 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 18:38

ATM you can get your money 3.8 times back at betfair by betting on UK leaving the EU. Probably a good deal. So far the betting markets have tended to overestimate the establishment line in such referenda and that is IMO also the case here :(
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 19:46

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-March-03, 12:44, said:

As an ethnic European (without any particular national identity) living in the UK I obviously have to be strongly in favour of staying.


Your perspective will be rare, if not unique. Most people retain their national identity even after living abroad for decades; the exceptions are those who adopt another one. In England (I cannot speak for the rest of the UK) few people think of themselves as European. In fact, if they had to identify themselves, they would affiliate with their city, the football team they support, their ancestral heritage (if not English), their religion, sexual orientation, partner/parental status, zodiac sign, pet ownership, and various miscellaneous affiliations before Europe came into the mix. There is still very much of a "Fog in Channel, Continent Isolated" attitude.

No one knows who their MEP is (and does it matter, since the major decisions seem to be made by people who don't, even nominally, represent anyone?) I am sure we all remember Cecilia "I do not take my mandate from the European people" Malstrom. Assuming she is not doing it just for laughs, the obvious question is whose payroll she is on, and why is that not being investigated?

Another question from England to the EU is "what have you done for me lately?" The loss of our fisheries is a tragedy, pure and simple, and we are deeply resentful of policies that affect our internal affairs. The late unlamented prohibition of posting price per lb of fresh food and other objects is a minor example, but people were furious about it. Also a lot of consumer products say produced/packaged in the EU, which makes it impossible to "buy British". This matters to a lot of people.

We wanted to be part of an economic union, and have ended up with something very different.

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-March-03, 14:03, said:

If TTIP is going to go through and pulling out will get us out of it, I'd vote out in a heartbeat, it's the most odious thing I've ever seen good for nobody other than US businesses and taking away a lot of sovereignty.


+1,000,000 and see above. You forgot to mention that it is also good for people whose pockets are being lined.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#11 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-March-03, 22:54

'In England (I cannot speak for the rest of the UK) few people think of themselves as European."


In the USA we think of all England as European. :)

Per Science you are. :)
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"Another question from England to the EU is "what have you done for me lately?" "


Wow I thought the issue was just the opposite "what has England done for the EU lately?"

It seems the you think the EU owes you rather than you owe the EU? very confusing who owes who? To put in another way I thought the good people of England owe a duty to the EU? YOu seem to say you are the victim!

:)
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#12 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 03:33

View Postmike777, on 2016-March-03, 22:54, said:

It seems the you think the EU owes you rather than you owe the EU? very confusing who owes who? To put in another way I thought the good people of England owe a duty to the EU? YOu seem to say you are the victim!

How many votes do you think you could swing by saying "It won't be good for the UK, but it will be good for Europe?"
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#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 03:51

View PostWellSpyder, on 2016-March-04, 03:33, said:

How many votes do you think you could swing by saying "It won't be good for the UK, but it will be good for Europe?"


It depends which way you want to swing them...
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#14 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 05:55

"What has England done for the UE?" How about giving it net, ie payments less receipts, well over 20 million UK pounds each and every day? £20,000,000 seems pretty big to me. This shades into insignificance the amount the EU is contributing to SE Europe (Greece etc) to help manage the mess its EU dearly held policies have caused. (The EU has decided to put about a week's worth of net UK contributions into this, to last for the whole year.)

I did hear a net contribution figure of £35M per day, so it may be more than £20M - does anyone have a better figure?

How about taking in all the unemployed people from all the countries of Europe and giving them state aid worth 10 times that they can receive in their own country? (OK, "all" is a slight exaggeration, I am sure there must be some who have stayed at home.)

How about giving it control over everything we do, so that whatever our highest courts say can be overturned?

Facts and figures seem difficult to come by, but it is early days yet. The "Brexit with Boris" movement will no doubt get into swing in the coming months, and help here.

The arguments for leaving are many :
Allow us to make or own laws
Let us control our own national borders
Let us catch a fish occasionally ...

The argument for remaining seems to be "it might be risky to leave".

I love Europe. I was completely in favour of joining the common market. I have grown to detest what the EU has become, subsuming everything to its self-aggrandising political ends.

Maybe I should vote. Maybe we can have gallons back in our fuel tanks! Maybe we no longer have to argue for years before we can have the right to buy bendy bananas!
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 06:07

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-March-04, 05:55, said:

"What has England done for the UE?" How about giving it net, ie payments less receipts, well over 20 million UK pounds each and every day? £20,000,000 seems pretty big to me. This shades into insignificance the amount the EU is contributing to SE Europe (Greece etc) to help manage the mess its EU dearly held policies have caused. (The EU has decided to put about a week's worth of net UK contributions into this, to last for the whole year.)

I did hear a net contribution figure of £35M per day, so it may be more than £20M - does anyone have a better figure?

How about taking in all the unemployed people from all the countries of Europe and giving them state aid worth 10 times that they can receive in their own country? (OK, "all" is a slight exaggeration, I am sure there must be some who have stayed at home.)

How about giving it control over everything we do, so that whatever our highest courts say can be overturned?

Facts and figures seem difficult to come by, but it is early days yet. The "Brexit with Boris" movement will no doubt get into swing in the coming months, and help here.

The arguments for leaving are many :
Allow us to make or own laws
Let us control our own national borders
Let us catch a fish occasionally ...

The argument for remaining seems to be "it might be risky to leave".

I love Europe. I was completely in favour of joining the common market. I have grown to detest what the EU has become, subsuming everything to its self-aggrandising political ends.

Maybe I should vote. Maybe we can have gallons back in our fuel tanks! Maybe we no longer have to argue for years before we can have the right to buy bendy bananas!


Didn't know Nigel Farage played bridge :)
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#16 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 06:28

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-March-04, 06:07, said:

Didn't know Nigel Farage played bridge :)


Has he made a point you disagree with?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#17 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 06:29

pls delete
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#18 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 06:34

View PostVampyr, on 2016-March-04, 06:28, said:

Has he made a point you disagree with?

I don't think you have to disagree with anything fromage said to find cyberyeti's comment amusing.
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#19 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 06:42

View PostWellSpyder, on 2016-March-04, 06:34, said:

I don't think you have to disagree with anything fromage said to find cyberyeti's comment amusing.

Nigel Farage is an interesting character. His party advocates policies that are in many cases odious, but when he appears on HIGNFY he is very frunny and self-deprecating.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#20 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-March-04, 07:48

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-March-03, 14:03, said:

If TTIP is going to go through and pulling out will get us out of it, I'd vote out in a heartbeat, it's the most odious thing I've ever seen good for nobody other than US businesses and taking away a lot of sovereignty.

For those (> 99.99% of the population according to a recent survey of 3 people) who have never heard of TTIP, try this for a taster : http://www.independe...ou-9779688.html
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