BBO Discussion Forums: Rubesohl - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1

Rubesohl How do you bid this hand?

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 345
  • Joined: 2014-January-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sleaford, Lincolnshire
  • Interests:Bridge, Gardening, DIY, Travel

Posted 2016-February-23, 12:01



We play Acol and weak No Trump and are about to adopt Rubensohl (well, learn it first!). How should East interpret West's bid? Might West have a) two hearts and no spade stop or b) two hearts and a spade stop, or c) three hearts with or without a spade stop? How does East know whether to pass, bid 4 or 3NT?
0

#2 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,727
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2016-February-23, 12:26

there are various versions of rubensohl.

1) you can play 3D as invitational plus and opener complete the transfer to show a rejection of the invite or bids something descriptive otherwise (often 3S if a dubious spade holding but no heart fit). this loses the option to compete on weak hands.

2) you can play 3D as weak or strong and opener must complete and then responder does something descriptive if strong (often 3NT with a spade stop or 3S with a balanced hand and no spade stop). this loses the invite on a lot of hands, though you could play a take-out double followed by hearts as natural invitational.

personally, i don't really care about invites. i'd much rather be able to compete on weak distributional hands.

in either version, east never needs to bid 4H without a 6 card suit or a strong 5 cards. he can leave it upto opener after describing his hand.

some terrible versions of lebensohl and, i expect, rubensohl, define X as a balanced invite. if whatever you're reading says that, deposit it swiftly in the bin.
0

#3 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,282
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2016-February-23, 13:44

Playing the transfer as possibly weak enables you to bid far more often. If that is the case, all East can deduce from opener's 3 bid is that he saw the 3. Now with GF strength, East should make a further move. He cannot really bid 3NT without a spade guard, so 3 passes the buck. If opener is not happy with his spades, he can bid 4 on a doubleton (though you would hope for more) or bid a 5 card minor. East should pass that.
0

#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,545
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-February-24, 05:02

3 here (initially) offers a choice of games without a spade stopper, although it can turn out to be an advance cue bid if Responder subsequently shows slam interest. 3NT would be choice of games with a spade stopper and obviously 4 would remove the 3NT option.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#5 User is offline   Caitlynne 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 203
  • Joined: 2015-October-09

Posted 2016-February-24, 16:23

Playing Rubensohl you must take the transfer (or make some kind of super-acceptance) simply because responder may be interested in merely competing for the part-score. This is true in Lebensohl too, but the advantage of Rubensohl (relative to Lebensohl) is that responder can bid again to share other information after the transfer is taken whereas this is not possible in Lebensohl. That is, Rubensohl increases useful bidding space.
0

#6 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,214
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2016-February-25, 03:27

The correct bid with this hand is 3. The rule is that when no natural bid fits, you will have to default to some general-purpose force which could be a new minor suit, a double, a forcing pass, the fourth suit or, as here, the suit bid by the opponents.

Many intermediate players think that this is a control bid, and it takes some experience to infer the correct meaning. The thought process could go like this:
- Strain and level before anything else.
- We are in a game force (unless we pass 3), so the level has been sorted out.
- The strain has not been sorted out: we might have only a 5+2 fit in hearts, we might have a spade stopper, we might have a minor suit fit.
- A two-suited hand could bid a minor suit naturally.
- With hearts only, you could just bid 4.
- With a spade stopper you could bid 3NT.
- So what remains is a hand that does not have a spade stopper but wants to keep the door open for 3NT in case opener has a spade stopper.
- When 3NT is still in the picture, you must have a way to force below 3NT, and that can only be 3

You might ask how to bid a one-suited hand too strong for 4. There are many possibilities, for example you might wonder if 4 now is a generic slam try or if it spcifically shows a control or specifically shortness or specifically a void. This is a different discussion, though. Here it suffices to say that it is more important to be able to find the right game than to have a broad arsenal of specific slam tries. So 3 shows a hand like what you have. It is possible, as Zelandakh says, that it could also be an advanced cuebid. But in any case, opener should not assume that. Until further notice it asks for a spade stopper offers a choice of game.

(Edit: thanks, Zel, for the correction)

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2016-February-25, 03:33

Friends don't let friends post while drunk. --- Vampyr
0

#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,545
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-February-25, 03:31

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-February-25, 03:27, said:

Until further notice it asks for a spade stopper.

I was with you 100% until here Helene. I prefer the terminology that it offers a choice of games. With 3-4 hearts and a spade stopper, Opener will still normally prefer the heart game over 3NT.
(-: Zel :-)
1

#8 User is offline   Liversidge 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 345
  • Joined: 2014-January-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sleaford, Lincolnshire
  • Interests:Bridge, Gardening, DIY, Travel

Posted 2016-February-25, 05:05

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-February-24, 05:02, said:

3 here (initially) offers a choice of games without a spade stopper, although it can turn out to be an advance cue bid if Responder subsequently shows slam interest. 3NT would be choice of games with a spade stopper and obviously 4 would remove the 3NT option.


Change the hand to this:

I can't see a way of inviting 4 (and would I want to do so, aceless and leaving my exposed honours on the table?). Or do I have to leave partner out of the decision and either bid 4 myself or else bid 3 and pass the response?
0

#9 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,727
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2016-February-25, 05:35

double post
0

#10 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,727
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2016-February-25, 05:35

this hand is good enough to force to 4h - it's worth considerably more than 10 hcp - but no doubt some genuine invites do exist.

you can double for take-out and correct whatever partner bids to 3H. that should show an invitation. you run the risk that partner passes the double. that's not much of a risk on this hand but if you had a more shapely hand with short spades you might not find that option not to be very sensible and then you would have to choose between settling for 3+4 yourself.
1

#11 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,214
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2016-February-25, 05:37

View PostLiversidge, on 2016-February-25, 05:05, said:

Change the hand to this:

I can't see a way of inviting 4 (and would I want to do so, aceless and leaving my exposed honours on the table?). Or do I have to leave partner out of the decision and either bid 4 myself or else bid 3 and pass the response?

You have to discuss this with partner. Here are the options:
1) Traditional Rubensohl just doesn't bid on weak hands. This way you can transfer and if partner accepts the transfers it means he rejects your invite and you can pass.
2) Transfer is weak or strong so invitational hands don't exist. You have to decide yourself if you bid game or not.
3) Transfer is weak or strong, the invitational hands can start with a double and then bid 3 which is invitational.
4) Transfer is invitational or stronger, weak hands can double. (This is probably a bad idea because with a weak hand you won't be happy if partner passes your double).
5) Transfer is invitational or stronger, weak hands scramble via 2NT. This is not Rubensohl since in Rubensohl, 2NT promises clubs.

5) is technically best I think, but if you want to keep it simple go with 2).
Friends don't let friends post while drunk. --- Vampyr
2

#12 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,727
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2016-February-25, 05:47

when you're talking about a particular convention on here it's worth giving the link to wherever you learned it or writing out what all the bids mean. as you should have gathered from what i and helene wrote, rubensohl doesn't mean a great deal in itself.
0

#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,545
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2016-February-25, 06:12

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-February-25, 05:37, said:

You have to discuss this with partner. Here are the options:
1) Traditional Rubensohl just doesn't bid on weak hands. This way you can transfer and if partner accepts the transfers it means he rejects your invite and you can pass.
2) Transfer is weak or strong so invitational hands don't exist. You have to decide yourself if you bid game or not.
3) Transfer is weak or strong, the invitational hands can start with a double and then bid 3 which is invitational.
4) Transfer is invitational or stronger, weak hands can double. (This is probably a bad idea because with a weak hand you won't be happy if partner passes your double).
5) Transfer is invitational or stronger, weak hands scramble via 2NT. This is not Rubensohl since in Rubensohl, 2NT promises clubs.

5) is technically best I think, but if you want to keep it simple go with 2).

Solution 3 works quite well in my experience and is what I tend to advise to new Rubensohl players who are uncomfortable with Solution 2. This is really the only problem case as there is automatically an invite for spades over a heart overcall and minors are less important. An additional solution for advanced players is to include the invitational heart hand into the 2NT call. Some go further and also include an invitational hand with diamonds too. The disadvantage of that is obviously that you lose the message that 2NT shows clubs but you are still no worse off than regular Lebensohl pairs and often better off. I prefer both of these possibilities as well as #3 to #5.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#14 User is offline   Liversidge 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 345
  • Joined: 2014-January-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sleaford, Lincolnshire
  • Interests:Bridge, Gardening, DIY, Travel

Posted 2016-February-25, 08:17

View Posthelene_t, on 2016-February-25, 05:37, said:

You have to discuss this with partner. Here are the options:
1) Traditional Rubensohl just doesn't bid on weak hands. This way you can transfer and if partner accepts the transfers it means he rejects your invite and you can pass.
2) Transfer is weak or strong so invitational hands don't exist. You have to decide yourself if you bid game or not.
3) Transfer is weak or strong, the invitational hands can start with a double and then bid 3 which is invitational.
4) Transfer is invitational or stronger, weak hands can double. (This is probably a bad idea because with a weak hand you won't be happy if partner passes your double).
5) Transfer is invitational or stronger, weak hands scramble via 2NT. This is not Rubensohl since in Rubensohl, 2NT promises clubs.

5) is technically best I think, but if you want to keep it simple go with 2).

Very helpful, thanks. Will decide on 2 or 3 after discussion with partner.
0

#15 User is offline   nullve 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 829
  • Joined: 2014-April-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway
  • Interests:partscores

Posted 2016-February-25, 08:26

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-February-25, 06:12, said:

An additional solution for advanced players is to include the invitational heart hand into the 2NT call. Some go further and also include an invitational hand with diamonds too.

I have a name for this:

Rubegoldbergcontraptionsohl
1

#16 User is online   WellSpyder 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,548
  • Joined: 2009-November-30
  • Location:Oxfordshire, England

Posted 2016-February-25, 09:11

View Postnullve, on 2016-February-25, 08:26, said:

I have a name for this:

Rubegoldbergcontraptionsohl

And to think that sometimes people are tempted to (wrongly) just give the name of a convention because it is shorter than actually explaining the meaning of a bid....
1

#17 User is offline   rhm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,936
  • Joined: 2005-June-27

Posted 2016-March-01, 06:20

View PostZelandakh, on 2016-February-25, 06:12, said:

Solution 3 works quite well in my experience and is what I tend to advise to new Rubensohl players who are uncomfortable with Solution 2. This is really the only problem case as there is automatically an invite for spades over a heart overcall and minors are less important. An additional solution for advanced players is to include the invitational heart hand into the 2NT call. Some go further and also include an invitational hand with diamonds too. The disadvantage of that is obviously that you lose the message that 2NT shows clubs but you are still no worse off than regular Lebensohl pairs and often better off. I prefer both of these possibilities as well as #3 to #5.

Complexities , complexities for very little gain if at all.

If you compete in a new strain at the three level you should have reasonable confidence that the contract will make.
Accordingly if you transfer into hearts opener should super-accept freely, since you are only one level below game.
Bidding on hands where you are any weaker has little to gain. LHO might double you or should you have a fit they will outbid you anyway and your bid will help them in the play.

Rubensol is much superior to Lebensol after 1NT, precisely because you name your suit in case LHO raises and transfers tend to be even more important when RHO interferes.
I see no merit weakening this concept.

Rainer Herrmann
0

#18 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,727
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2016-March-01, 11:03

View Postrhm, on 2016-March-01, 06:20, said:

Complexities , complexities for very little gain if at all.

If you compete in a new strain at the three level you should have reasonable confidence that the contract will make.
Accordingly if you transfer into hearts opener should super-accept freely, since you are only one level below game.
Bidding on hands where you are any weaker has little to gain. LHO might double you or should you have a fit they will outbid you anyway and your bid will help them in the play.

Rubensol is much superior to Lebensol after 1NT, precisely because you name your suit in case LHO raises and transfers tend to be even more important when RHO interferes.
I see no merit weakening this concept.

Rainer Herrmann


you're wrong. if i think there's a reasonable chance i can make 3 diamonds, it in no way follows that i think we can make 3NT even opposite a maximum.
0

#19 User is offline   rhm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,936
  • Joined: 2005-June-27

Posted 2016-March-02, 04:25

View Postwank, on 2016-March-01, 11:03, said:

you're wrong. if i think there's a reasonable chance i can make 3 diamonds, it in no way follows that i think we can make 3NT even opposite a maximum.

I have mainly talked about transfer to hearts, not a minor.
Super-accepting a transfer in a minor is less frequent in comparison, particularly if you play weak notrumps.
It must be a hand where opener does not mind when responder corrects to 4m.
But even there those hands with some values and a good 6 card minor are not that rare.
I can see your point of claiming that 2NT (clubs) or 3 (diamonds) to be either strong or "weak", though not very weak.
But regarding transfer to hearts there is much more merit to play that as at least mildly invitational.

Rainer Herrmann
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users