[UdcaDenny]

I passed and my P opened 1♣. RHO overcalled 1♠ and I bid 1NT with 9p and Kx in ♠. LHO raised to 2♠ followed by 2 pass. I didnt want to let the opps play on the 2level so I made a takeoutdouble having 4-4 in the minors but P passed and said it was a penaltydouble. P could have only 3♣ so I didnt want to bid 3♣.

[ahydra]

It's often clearer to make a diagram:

---

I guess penalty is more useful than takeout for this double - you can't have 4+ hearts otherwise you would have doubled 1S. From partner's point of view, looking at say a minimum 1435 it's more likely you have say KJ9x in spades and something useful outside rather than a takeout-type hand with both minors.

But like most things in bridge bidding, it's a matter of partnership agreement.

ahydra

[mgoetze]

Seems like a good one to discuss with partner, thanks.

[steve2005]

Often people use 2N here as takeout for minors.
What are you going to do with 4 great ♠ over 2♠? Pass and double for Pen are your only real options.

[kenrexford]

2NT instead of X never makes sense unless it shows a desire to bid 3C but hedging, or some hand with the same idea but some diamond length. In other words, 2N says, depending on partnership agreements, either that you have something like four clubs and choice therefore between clubs and 2NT, or five diamonds and choice between 3D and 2NT.

Doubling, if takeout, shows either both or the one not covered by 2NT, probably the latter.

I don't think both is a legit option, as that only comes up if 2254, and that is really tight. But, you can cater to both.

If 2NT shows the five diamonds hand, X shows the 4 clubs hand. If you double, and if partner opts 2NT, he has 3433 with lousy spades, so try 3D, as he must have a fit.

If X is penalty, then 2NT probably should be one or the other. As 3433 is the only legit risk to just bidding 3C, 2N should probably show 5 diamonds.

[lycier]

Cooperative double.

[Phil]

Double is penalty; 2N is takeout.

But I expect partner to look at their hand before making that determination.

[relknes]

The double should be for penalty, in my opinion. You would have doubled 1♠ for takeout if you could have, and partner has already told you they prefer clubs to diamonds (or at worst that they are equal length) so why go fishing for a diamond fit with 4-4 minors? If you don't want them to play at the 2 level, 3♣ seems fine, though 2N is pretty useless as natural here, so using it to mean both minors is ok I guess if your diamonds are longer or significantly stronger than your clubs.

*side note, my partner and I have a meta-agreement that doubles on any sequence involving a bid in NT are for penalty. It saves a lot of misunderstandings without giving up all that much.

[sfi]

 UdcaDenny, on 2016-January-31, 01:27, said:

P could have only 3♣ so I didnt want to bid 3♣.

What alternative contract are you envisaging that will be better than 3C? Partner might have 4 hearts with 3H being a good contract on your 4-3 fit, but that's a pretty narrow target you are aiming at. If you just bid an in-tempo 3C and don't have a good fit, they may well misread their partner's club length and push on anyway.

I would expect a takeout bid to look more like 2-3-5-3 on this auction, where you can suggest 3D as a good contract.

[mike777]

again are all doubles at the one and two level for takeout? If so takeout.


OTOH if you play barry crane style then all of these doubles are penalty..and per agreement you are forbidden to pull.

You can win and win very often playing either style...just agree.

[SteveMoe]

Over 2♠ this can well be a cooperative penalty double, showing a max 1NT call and asking partner to look at their hand and decide.
This goes hand in hand with 2N as "2 places 2 play".
Over this double, partner can return us to 2N or bid a minor at the 3 level when right, or pass for penalties if 200-300 is in the offing.

Playing this as pure takeout is a bit incongruous as you have already announced values (and modest length) in this suit.

[mike777]

playing this as a cooperative double is a bit incongruous.

[PhilG007]

 UdcaDenny, on 2016-January-31, 01:27, said:

I passed and my P opened 1♣. RHO overcalled 1♠ and I bid 1NT with 9p and Kx in ♠. LHO raised to 2♠ followed by 2 pass. I didnt want to let the opps play on the 2level so I made a takeoutdouble having 4-4 in the minors but P passed and said it was a penaltydouble. P could have only 3♣ so I didnt want to bid 3♣.

You cannot muddle the two doubles. If partner has not already bid and the bidding is below game,then the double
is a take out request. If however,partner has already bid then the double is for blood. Hope this clears up the
confusion.

[relknes]

 PhilG007, on 2016-February-01, 01:51, said:

You cannot muddle the two doubles. If partner has not already bid and the bidding is below game,then the double
is a take out request. If however,partner has already bid then the double is for blood. Hope this clears up the
confusion.

To be fair, that is far from a standard agreement. For instance:

1♣-(1♠)-X
It would be unusual to play this as penalty.

P-(1♥)-P-(1♠)
P-(2♦)-P-(3♥)
P-(P)-X
It would be unusual to play this as takeout.

[Caitlynne]

There is no question about the traditional/standard meaning. It is a penalty double. You have shown spade values and then doubled. Since double is a reasonable natural interpretation having shown spade values, it is penalty - usually based on a good 4 card holding and maximum values for 1NT. Or so the old rationale goes.

A more modern approach is that the double shows maximum values and is competitive, asking partner for input. Typically this means a spade holding like Kx or Ax and no real interest in hearts, so it suggests the minors with 4 card club support. Partner, holding 3 card length in spades and good defensive values, is encouraged to consider defending or else use judgment regarding where to play (including 2NT as a possibility). This comes up a lot more than the penalty double does.

Sitting at the table as your partner, I would look at my spade holding to help me decide which meaning you had intended. If I were short in spades, I would treat it as penalty. With 2 spades, I would probably takeout. With 3 spades, I would assume you meant it competitive with doubt about what to do.

[mgoetze]

 Phil, on 2016-January-31, 14:38, said:

Double is penalty; 2N is takeout.

This seems like the obvious thing to agree at IMPs, but if playing MPs, is there no need to worry that we will only get +100 when we could get +120?

[zillahandp]

Someone psyched? Hard too see a hand here I would want to x for pens so guessing take out , maybe the 1nt was unusual! Usual bbo rubbish bidding but what is my hand? So cant say

[Phil]

 mgoetze, on 2016-February-01, 15:23, said:

This seems like the obvious thing to agree at IMPs, but if playing MPs, is there no need to worry that we will only get +100 when we could get +120?

Well you could still play x penalty and 2N natural.