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1 Diamond - 3NT? 14 HCP, 5 card support for partner's minor

#1 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 10:27


I can't bid 3 Diamonds or 2NT which show 10-12 points, and I don't have a second 4 card suit. Looking at my honour strength then presumably partner is very likely to have spade honours.

We play Acol - 4 card majors.
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#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 10:40

Yes within the confines of your system 3N shows this sort of strength, a balanced hand with primary diamond support and no alternative. It does take out a lot of space. Not always a bad thing. I take it you missed slam?
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#3 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 11:10

View Post1eyedjack, on 2016-January-16, 10:40, said:

Yes within the confines of your system 3N shows this sort of strength, a balanced hand with primary diamond support and no alternative. It does take out a lot of space. Not always a bad thing. I take it you missed slam?

Thanks.
I am too embarrassed to say how the bidding went. Suffice to say I didn't bid 3NT because I felt sure there must be some way of exploring at a lower level and messed up!
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#4 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 11:29

There is a way to explore at a lower level, but it is obviously not "natural" and needs partnership agreement! Many play 2 as not necessarily natural, or 2 as potentially strong and therefore forcing to some point or other, but without an agreement, I can't think of any reply other than 3NT. 1 for example will always end in heart game if opener has four, regardless of what you do (legally) next.
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#5 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 12:14

View PostfromageGB, on 2016-January-16, 11:29, said:

There is a way to explore at a lower level, but it is obviously not "natural" and needs partnership agreement! Many play 2 as not necessarily natural, or 2 as potentially strong and therefore forcing to some point or other, but without an agreement, I can't think of any reply other than 3NT. 1 for example will always end in heart game if opener has four, regardless of what you do (legally) next.

OK, I will own up. I did bid 1 and we did end up in 4 and went 1 off. At the time I just didn't feel it was right to leap to 3NT with no spade cover. I will be prepared next time.
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#6 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 12:22

You may want to consider "inverted minors" - 2D is an unlimited raise, 10+ HCPs, with 3D a pre-emptive raise. It solves this problem nicely. Alternatively if you already play a Jacoby-style 2NT bid over the majors, you can extend that to minors as well.

ahydra
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#7 User is offline   Liversidge 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 12:56

View Postahydra, on 2016-January-16, 12:22, said:

You may want to consider "inverted minors" - 2D is an unlimited raise, 10+ HCPs, with 3D a pre-emptive raise. It solves this problem nicely. Alternatively if you already play a Jacoby-style 2NT bid over the majors, you can extend that to minors as well.

ahydra

Thanks. I had just remembered an "inverted minors' reference in a book partner and I use (Understanding the Uncontested Auction' - Klinger and Kambites'). It gives an example hand almost identical to this one, and it works well. Something for us to consider down the line. Meanwhile I will risk 3NT.
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 12:57

It is a well-known issue with approach-forcing methods and one of the main reasons that conventions such as inverted minors and criss-cross were invented.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-January-16, 16:40

I fell foul of something like this yesterday with an opp bidding an unalerted 2 in a fairly new partnership, when his partner raised clubs and he went back to diamonds I thought they had a bigger club fit than they actually did and got my total tricks calculation horribly wrong.

2 is I suspect the old fashioned Acol way of handling this, but a lot of people now use inverted minors.
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#10 User is offline   overruff42 

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Posted 2016-January-17, 02:40

This is the hand for criss-cross, where 2D is a game forcing raise. Stoppers are bid up the line, and it is easy to determine whether to stop in 3NT or try for a diamond slam
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#11 User is offline   kronolith 

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Posted 2016-January-17, 03:04

Consider 2NT as game-forcing with diamond support. Commonly played over majors (Jacoby, Stenberg) so why not over minors too?
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#12 User is offline   zillahandp 

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Posted 2016-January-17, 03:55

2c every time
Keeps all options open and if p raises clubs I can cope
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#13 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2016-January-18, 15:38

It is usually better, when you "fake" a suit, to cheat on a minor than on a major, because partner would usually still try for 3NT if you bid a minor, while stopping in 3NT after a major fit is found is more difficult.

That said, it is also likely that partner is better placed to play NT contract (because of your ultra-weak holding), so you should try to right-side by not stealing NT that early. Over 3NT, partner with a non-descript 1453 minimum is not expected to move and you'll go down with e.g. 5 or 6 laydown (x AQxx Axxxx Kxx or A AQxx Qxxxx xxx).

The hand you provided, absent any agreements like the inverted minors lots mentionned (but that I do not consider to be a B/I convention), asks for a 2 bid, waiting to see developments (like bid 3NT over 2NT from partner, 3 if forcing over 2 otherwise 2 which would not guarantee a 4-cd suit in that sequence). You can convert back to if partner bombards you with any high number of , and if that is the case, you probably didn't belong in 3NT.
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#14 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2016-January-18, 20:12

A simple correction is to play jump in the other minor as GF. 1-2 or 1-3.
This is similar to criss-cross without adding complexity of inverted minors.
SAYC has problem as Acol with this type of hand - no forcing raise.
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