[Liversidge]

1NT (2♥) X (P) ?

Penalty or takeout? (We aren't yet up to taking on Rubensohl)

[eagles123]

takeout

[NickRW]

I'd tend to agree it should be takeout. However, I am not sure that you can be certain without partnership discussion as several players I've known assume it is penalty.

[Cyberyeti]

NickRW, on 2016-January-12, 06:08, said:

I'd tend to agree it should be takeout. However, I am not sure that you can be certain without partnership discussion as several players I've known assume it is penalty.

It certainly used to be assumed to be penalty.

It's playable either way, you just need to know what you're doing.

Whatever you play 1N-(2x)-X as, 1N-(3x)-X should be takeout

[helene_t]

Penalty is very reasonable if playing weak nt:

- The weak nt "forces" opps to enter the auction with strongish hands even if they don't quite have the shape or suit quality for doing so safely
- The weak nt opener is less likely than a strong nt opener to reopen so it is not so attractive to "trap pass" when playing weak nt.

That said, if you don't play any "sohl" convention you really need the negative double here, otherwise too many hands become unbiddable.

[steve2005]

As Cyber says is playable either way as long as both of you on same page.

However, if people are overcalling indiscriminately over your 1N it may be a good idea to have a penalty double in your arsenal.

Note: it is still possible to collect a penalty playing negative doubles but is a more advanced topic.

[Liversidge]

helene_t, on 2016-January-12, 06:40, said:

That said, if you don't play any "sohl" convention you really need the negative double here, otherwise too many hands become unbiddable.

I thought at first that 'negative' was an error and you meant 'penalty'. Until now I have never come across the negative double used after partner's 1NT has been overcalled, but having googled it I have found it on Larry Cohen's site, in the 'advanced' section!

As partner and I are just getting the hang of the standard negative double and have Rubensohl in sight for the future, I think it is probably better to agree for the double to show penalty based on what I have been picking up from answers so far.

[gwnn]

Liversidge, on 2016-January-12, 08:15, said:

I thought at first that 'negative' was an error and you meant 'penalty'. Until now I have never come across the negative double used after partner's 1NT has been overcalled, but having googled it I have found it on Larry Cohen's site, in the 'advanced' section!

As partner and I are just getting the hang of the standard negative double and have Rubensohl in sight for the future, I think it is probably better to keep the double for penalty or takeout - tending towards penalty from what I am reading.

Negative or takeout mean the same thing in this context, or at least people use them that way.

[gwnn]

I mean, you could argue that after
1NT-(2H)-x

The takeout X would just show shortish hearts and 3+ in the other suits, while a negative X would specifically promise 4 spades saying not much about the other suits, but in practice nobody would play this second method, because opener hasn't promised a suit yet.

Plus, it's common to call doubles like
1D-(3S)-x as negative, even though it doesn't promise 4 hearts unconditionally.

So takeout doubles and negative doubles are the same here. I don't think it matters how you call them.

[mycroft]

From a weak NT (in a world of 15-17) standpoint, we switched from penalty to takeout doubles.

The penalty double is nice and gets great results when it comes out. However, the many -5s and 25%s we got when they bid and "we have a fit, we just don't know where" ...and the strong NTers are having auctions like 1m-(1♥)-X instead of 1NT-(2♥)-? convinced us that we needed a takeout call, and double it was. Just on sheer frequency, we're doubling at least 3-4 times as often as we used to, and not feeling like our hands are tied. Yes, it's frustrating when we have a penalty double and partner doesn't cooperate (and it's frustrating when we don't have a penalty double and partner *does* cooperate), but that's rare.

In a world where "the field" isn't 90% strong NT, the arguments may change.

[Phil]

This auction isn't terribly different than:

1C 2H X.

I suppose you don't have to play negative doubles here but why wouldn't you?

[Cyberyeti]

Phil, on 2016-January-12, 13:12, said:

This auction isn't terribly different than:

1C 2H X.

I suppose you don't have to play negative doubles here but why wouldn't you?

It's extremely different. You can know you don't have game on and have at least 6 trumps between you with your nice 4 card holding sitting over at least 5 of them with dummy guaranteed to hold 2 at most.

[Phil]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-January-12, 13:49, said:

It's extremely different. You can know you don't have game on and have at least 6 trumps between you with your nice 4 card holding sitting over at least 5 of them with dummy guaranteed to hold 2 at most.

I don't know. A 1C opening is, what, equivalent to a weak NT something like 65% of the time?

When partner opens a weak NT and holds a doubleton heart, reopening seems pretty obvious.

The only time I'd want to play a penalty x is either when 1) we have so many trumps and opener cannot reopen, or, 2)we don't have a tremendous trump stack but we everything covered but trump and they are vul..

[Zelandakh]

Although it is a penalty double by the old rules, I would suggest you play it as takeout.

[Cyberyeti]

Phil, on 2016-January-12, 16:40, said:

I don't know. A 1C opening is, what, equivalent to a weak NT something like 65% of the time?

When partner opens a weak NT and holds a doubleton heart, reopening seems pretty obvious.

The only time I'd want to play a penalty x is either when 1) we have so many trumps and opener cannot reopen, or, 2)we don't have a tremendous trump stack but we everything covered but trump and they are vul..

Depends to some extent which hands you open 1♣ and which 1♦ for the %.

So holding ♥Q109x and a 3433 10 count, it's easy if you have a penalty double available.

You could find pd has a 3334 12 count where he probably passes, or a bigger hand with short hearts where he reopens with a double and you should have been bidding 3N/5m rather than taking an inadequate penalty, or a weak NT with a doubleton heart where pass is right, but you have no way of knowing what's right.

[daffydoc]

used to play pen on two level - neg on 3 level - have changed to both neg with NT opener responsible to balance with dbl if short in opp suit. However your question is only answerable if partnership has an agreement - otherwise its a guess. daffydoc

[fourdad]

Seems to me it depends on what the 2♥ bid is?
Natural? DONT? CAPP?

Against Natural or CAPP, my partnersip agreements are the X is a "stolen bid", that is, a transfer to spades.

Against DONT it is penalty.

This is one of those areas where only detailed partnership agreements will prosper.

[Caitlynne]

There are certainly benefits to playing the double as negative/takeout, but the standard meaning in the absence of discussion is unequivocally penalty.

If you are playing a weak 1NT opening, most pairs will prefer to keep the standard meaning.

[ggwhiz]

We play the doubles as negative here in a strong notrump structure and the flip side is that the 1nt opener (after an overcall has been passed back to them) has to re-open with double on many hands to protect a possible penalty pass from 3rd position.

Opening a weak notrump and going through the fear and loathing of when to re-open when the overcall is passed back to you is something to be avoided so penalty is a good choice.

[zillahandp]

Penalties if point based p will lead trumps in most circumstances