[TrampledUF]

In any debate about opening 1NT with a 5 card major, the "rebid problem" is mentioned -- namely, that after 1H-1S, what do you bid if you've got 15-17 points, since 1NT indicates 12-14?

Here is what I never see mentioned: what if partnership simply agreed that rebid 1NT is 12 to 17? Would that be so problematic? After all, that's the range that you're showing if you bid 2 of a minor.

[mgoetze]

What if partner then has 9 points and doesn't know whether 2NT is too high or too low?

[Zelandakh]

Hello TrampledUF and welcome to the BBO forums. This is an idea that was once popular in the UK, generally with a weak NT. You might find it helpful to do a search for a convention called Crowhurst. Few (if any) modern-day experts play this although at least one forum regular does so I daresay he can give you a good description of the pros and cons from the other (positive) side of things.

Another idea that is sometimes seen is to raise spades in your hypothetical example with 3=5=(3-2) shape, thus meaning that it is only necessary to open 1NT with specifically 2=5=3=3. Naturally this also has some issues attached to it. Other systems have different solutions - some, such as SEF and Forum D never open 1NT with a 5 card major and have the rebids structured around this. In general, I would suggest that route rather than the Crowhurst one.

[FrancesHinden]

I've played a 1NT rebid on the auction 1H-1S-1NT as 12-17. It's just about playable, particularly at IMPs. At MPs you pass 1NT slightly too often, and miss the odd game. At IMPs you play in 2M rather than 1NT which is usually an OK spot (over the 1NT rebid, responder bids

2C asks (rebids 2D minimum third, 2H middle third with 2 spades, 2S middle third with 3 spades, 2NT max third, game forcing). Continuations of 2NT+ game forcing
2D weak
2H constructive 5-2 majors (mild game invitation)
2S weak
2NT invitational opposite the top half of the range (pass on the bottom two thirds)

[nullve]

 mgoetze, on 2015-December-26, 12:31, said:

What if partner then has 9 points and doesn't know whether 2NT is too high or too low?

I think OP's point is that you're not obviously worse off after a 1N rebid showing 12-17 hcp than after a 2m rebid having the same range. Besides, I don't see why you'd ever want to play in 2N after something like

1♥-1♠; 1N(12-17 bal.)-?:

P = 0-8, 4S2-H
2♣ = (8)9+, relay
...2♦ = 12-14, 2533 [allows P with 4S1-H4+D, 2♥ with 4S2H, 2♠ with 5+ S and 3♣ with 4S1-H5+C]
...2♥ = 12-14, 3S5H(32) [allows P with 4S2H, 2♠ with 4S1-H5-D5-C and 3m with 4S6+m]
...(...)
2♦/♥/♠ = to play

This post has been edited by nullve: 2015-December-27, 14:49

[1eyedjack]

Assuming that you have some gadget to cope with a wide range 1N rebid, that allows you to investigate game opposite a maximum without hopelessly overreaching on a minimum, you have to accept that on not every hand will the auction develop so as to afford you the luxury of a 1N rebid on your next turn.

Anyway, in my view you are looking for a solution to a problem that is overstated. I do not have any particular objection to opening 1N with a 5 card major, such that I need to look for some method of avoiding it.

[TrampledUF]

That's a good point, 1eyedjack. You've correctly inferred that I'm wary of the idea of opening 1NT with 5M. I've never done it, but now I'm considering it because so many good players recommend it. My issue is that modern methods place such great emphasis on finding 8 card trump fits, and yet in this one case, players are willing to miss it. I say this because in my experience, most players who open 1NT with 5M do not use Puppet Stayman or anything else to find the 5-3 fit, they are content not to find it.

[gszes]

It isn't just 9 count that is a problem, 12-17 is monstrous with the 1 level gone. 8 9 10 all become problems where inviting (opposite 12 13 14) can be too high and not bidding can all miss games (opposite 15 16 17). Much better is to include 5 card majors in your 1n opener (with or w/o puppet stayman) or slightly increasing the size of your 1n and 2n rebids so 1n = 12-15 2n = 17-19 and decide if your 16 counts look more like 15 or 17. You will miss far less games with either method and go overboard far less depending on how lucky you are on any given hand.

[Zelandakh]

 TrampledUF, on 2015-December-26, 14:03, said:

I say this because in my experience, most players who open 1NT with 5M do not use Puppet Stayman or anything else to find the 5-3 fit, they are content not to find it.

A large portion of top US pairs use a 2NT or 3♣ response as Puppet Stayman. I have also posted on BBF a 1NT structure built around 2♣ as Puppet Stayman several times, so there are certainly solutions available if you consider this a major issue for you.

[steve2005]

Statistically it is right to open 1N on almost all 5332 hands 1N unless your playing Gazzilli or something similar.
There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
I trust in my bridge judgement, playing standard I pick the prime hands to open 1N based on:
1) A solid or semi-solid major
2) A poor major
3) 3 cards in the other major
Picking only these hands or other hands suitable for NT such as hands with a couple of empty Kings etc means when you open 1N with a 5-card major you have significant odds in your favor not just the statistical advantage of 52% or whatever it is.
Use your judgment.

[fourdad]

I would suggest that the fine line betwen opening 1NT w/ 5M is whether or not you have more than 1 doubleton.....or, to put it another way, whether you are 5-4.

[iandayre]

 TrampledUF, on 2015-December-26, 12:13, said:

In any debate about opening 1NT with a 5 card major, the "rebid problem" is mentioned -- namely, that after 1H-1S, what do you bid if you've got 15-17 points, since 1NT indicates 12-14?

Here is what I never see mentioned: what if partnership simply agreed that rebid 1NT is 12 to 17? Would that be so problematic? After all, that's the range that you're showing if you bid 2 of a minor.

I would say that having such a wide range for the 1NT rebid is far more of a problem than is usually caused when opening 1NT with a 5 card major.

[zillahandp]

Weak nt, not playing 5cd mjrs and checkback works well as it allows you to show 5/3 and point range.

[fromageGB]

Steve2005 mentioned Gazzilli, and this solves the huge range rebid that exists in just about any simple rebid, as well as the 1NT. And it's not just minors : what is your rebid range for 2♥? If you want to slash that range, you need a type of Gazzilli. It comes with a cost, the cost of better expression in minor rebids, but many consider it beneficial.

While playing in 1NT has no great downside to playing in 2M in IMPs, when you are playing MPs that small difference in score becomes paramount, and if you can happily have two different methods, I firmly believe 1NT should include a 5 card major in IMPs, but deny one in MPs.

[TrampledUF]

 steve2005, on 2015-December-26, 20:28, said:

Statistically it is right to open 1N on almost all 5332 hands 1N unless your playing Gazzilli or something similar.
There are lies, damned lies and statistics.
I trust in my bridge judgement, playing standard I pick the prime hands to open 1N based on:
1) A solid or semi-solid major
2) A poor major
3) 3 cards in the other major
Picking only these hands or other hands suitable for NT such as hands with a couple of empty Kings etc means when you open 1N with a 5-card major you have significant odds in your favor not just the statistical advantage of 52% or whatever it is.
Use your judgment.

What do you mean by #1 and #2? They are contradictory, no?

[1eyedjack]

 TrampledUF, on 2015-December-28, 00:12, said:

What do you mean by #1 and #2? They are contradictory, no?

If you have a solid suit that is running, you often make the same number of tricks in NT by running the suit.
If the suit is particularly poor, then you may do better in NT by looking elsewhere for your tricks, which option is not available if they are trumps.

Generalising is dangerous.