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What do continuations mean?

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 05:57


In a recent event, I had the North hand, and bid 3D but my partner said that was forcing and we got too high. I asked him what I should have bid, and he said that I should have passed now or raised diamonds on the previous round. I thought we might then miss a 4-4 heart fit, opposite something like x AJxx AKxxxx xx, but then we had to move on to the next board and never returned to the subject. Are there any standard methods here, for something like a 5-4-(31) 10 count when partner opens 1m and rebids it showing 6, in a strong NT, 2/1 structure? All views appreciated!
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 06:10

This is why many people play 2 or 2 artificial here inv+.

I think I agree that 3 is forcing and that you pass 2 here bad though that is in this case without the above arrangement.

With those outside queens, I might have opened 2 at this position/vul playing standard.
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#3 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 06:23

I agree with your partner on this one - 2H then 3D should definitely be G/F. If you wanted to invite in diamonds/NT you could have bid 3D (or 2NT) directly over 2D.

It's common to use the 2H bid in this sequence (and even more commonly the 2D bid in the sequence 1C - 1M - 2C - 2D*) as a 'semi-natural' forcing bid which you will sometime be endplayed into making on a strong hand with out direction. Without that agreement there are strong hands that simply don't have a bid so giving up a little bit of precision on invitational hands is worthwhile sacrifice.

Nothing is perfect on your actual hand, but 2S should have chances.
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 06:38

Can't you bid 3 with a forcing hand?

OTOH if 2 shows a minimum, you can always pass it. Althought it is likely to be a 5-2 fit, it is rarely much worse than 3.

It would be bad if the system forces you to raise diamonds directly. Fred once argued that 2 should be a GF but if that is not the case then either 2 or 3 in your auction has to be nonforcing.
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#5 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 07:01

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-November-10, 06:38, said:

Can't you bid 3 with a forcing hand?

OTOH if 2 shows a minimum, you can always pass it. Althought it is likely to be a 5-2 fit, it is rarely much worse than 3.

It would be bad if the system forces you to raise diamonds directly. Fred once argued that 2 should be a GF but if that is not the case then either 2 or 3 in your auction has to be nonforcing.

My view is that you should play transfers here, so that 2NT is fourth suit forcing, and 3C is a transfer to diamonds, either a sign-off or FG if you move on. Of course no good without discussion. It is unacceptable to have to play a 5-2 fit, which could be Txxxx opposite Jx in extreme cases, and unacceptable not to be able to look for 4-4 hearts, and then sign off in 3D, when game or even slam might be cold. After 1C-1S-2C-2H-2S-2NT is a transfer to clubs, either sign-off or FG and 3C is fourth-suit forcing. You lose 2NT in both cases as natural, but who ever wanted to play in that contract anyway? Without these agreements, I agree it is very awkward.
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 07:07

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 07:01, said:

My view is that you should play transfers here, so that 2NT is fourth suit forcing, and 3C is a transfer to diamonds, either a sign-off or FG if you move on.

Presumably you could also combine ideas, so that 2 is 4SF (3SF?), 2NT shows an invite with hearts and 3 shows diamonds but it is probably simpler just to play one of the well-known "off-the-shelf" methods involving an artificial 2 rebid.
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#7 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 07:17

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-November-10, 07:07, said:

Presumably you could also combine ideas, so that 2 is 4SF (3SF?), 2NT shows an invite with hearts and 3 shows diamonds but it is probably simpler just to play one of the well-known "off-the-shelf" methods involving an artificial 2 rebid.

Is there a link to those "well-known" methods?
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 07:29

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 07:17, said:

Is there a link to those "well-known" methods?

This is the one I usually give but there are many alternatives that other BBF posters regularly give out too. It is a common enough theme that it might even be found in gwnn's Hall of Fame list.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 08:37

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 07:17, said:

Is there a link to those "well-known" methods?

http://www.bridgeguy...hnson.pages.pdf another example, we actually use a home hashed modification of this sort of thing, I first saw it in a Bourke article and know it as a Bourke relay.
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#10 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 08:38

View PostCyberyeti, on 2015-November-10, 08:37, said:

http://www.bridgeguy...hnson.pages.pdf another example, we actually use a home hashed modification of this sort of thing, I first saw it in a Bourke article and know it as a Bourke relay.

Many thanks, Cyber; home-hashed or not, it is a major improvement on our methods!
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 08:44

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 08:38, said:

Many thanks, Cyber; home-hashed or not, it is a major improvement on our methods!

We actually use next suit up whether it's a new suit or not as the relay and use 2N to show the relay suit and minimum NF, as with a real inv 2N hand you use the relay.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 08:46

deleted dup
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#13 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 10:16

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-November-10, 07:07, said:

2NT shows an invite with hearts

I don't think that is much good. I think 2H should be invite+ with hearts, possibly ART, but forcing for one round. Opener surely gives preference with two spades and three hearts, and this will often end the auction. If it doesn't, then it makes sense to have methods. By far the most common hands will have responder worth one move over 2m.
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#14 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 11:11

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 10:16, said:

I don't think that is much good. I think 2H should be invite+ with hearts, possibly ART, but forcing for one round.

You remove INV with hearts from the relay and add in some additional GF hands instead. I cannot see any reason why that would be intrinsically bad, although I would need to look at it in more detail to suggest it in earnest.
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#15 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 15:47

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 05:57, said:


In a recent event, I had the North hand, and bid 3D but my partner said that was forcing and we got too high. I asked him what I should have bid, and he said that I should have passed now or raised diamonds on the previous round. I thought we might then miss a 4-4 heart fit, opposite something like x AJxx AKxxxx xx, but then we had to move on to the next board and never returned to the subject. Are there any standard methods here, for something like a 5-4-(31) 10 count when partner opens 1m and rebids it showing 6, in a strong NT, 2/1 structure? All views appreciated!


common problem hand.

Many here on the forums play reverse flannery to show this north hand type.

1minor=2h=roughly 7-11 5s and 4h.

without that I think you need to play the 2s rebid by south as a minimum hand or open the south hand with a wk 2d bid.
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#16 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 04:15

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-10, 05:57, said:


In a recent event, I had the North hand, and bid 3D but my partner said that was forcing and we got too high. I asked him what I should have bid, and he said that I should have passed now or raised diamonds on the previous round. I thought we might then miss a 4-4 heart fit, opposite something like x AJxx AKxxxx xx, but then we had to move on to the next board and never returned to the subject. Are there any standard methods here, for something like a 5-4-(31) 10 count when partner opens 1m and rebids it showing 6, in a strong NT, 2/1 structure? All views appreciated!


What was your agreement on what constitutes an opening hand? A ratty 11 pts full of queens with a Qx and no 4 card major?
Seems to me all the rest of your problems never happen if your pard just opens 2!!!
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#17 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 05:55

View Postfourdad, on 2015-November-11, 04:15, said:

What was your agreement on what constitutes an opening hand? A ratty 11 pts full of queens with a Qx and no 4 card major?
Seems to me all the rest of your problems never happen if your pard just opens 2!!!

In England, where this was played, some play constructive weak twos, but our style was 5-9, and this was just a tad too good. He could have passed.
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#18 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 06:11

View Postlamford, on 2015-November-11, 05:55, said:

In England, where this was played, some play constructive weak twos, but our style was 5-9, and this was just a tad too good. He could have passed.


Vulnerable, you might consider constructive weak 2's, reserving the 5-9 for NV situations.
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#19 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 06:26

View Postfourdad, on 2015-November-11, 06:11, said:

Vulnerable, you might consider constructive weak 2's, reserving the 5-9 for NV situations.

That is how I played with both Hallberg and Townsend, on the rare occasions that they had to put up with me as a partner.
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#20 User is offline   gedikk 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 09:33

Indeed, South's hand does not qualify at all for a level 1 opening, even in green.
Re actual auction, North succession looks okay to me, as 3 forces South to bid 4, imho.
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