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bidding problem after reverse

#1 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2015-November-09, 15:28

matchpoints

3nt = ~19-21, usually 1345/1246/0346 with heart stopper

Now what? 4 (natural GF, slam try, looking for cue bids), 6, p?

If you bid 4:
Spoiler

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#2 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2015-November-09, 16:08

Yes I would bid 4 looking for slam and after that I fail to see the problem. If partner doesn't have a diamond control, neither do I.

Game in clubs it is and I've fulfilled the prime directive... to win the post mortem.
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#3 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2015-November-09, 18:01

I don't like your to rebid 2S with such strong support for partner and a heart void. Especially holding such prime spades, I'd rather support clubs directly over 2D.

Even a subminimum shapely reverses like [--- xxx Axxx AKxxxx] or [x xxx AKxx AKxxx] makes slam good, and bidding spades might slow partner down.
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#4 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 02:42

Sadly rebidding spades has created a problem. I prefer a raise to 3C setting a game force and leaving us ample room to explore slam.
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 03:18

 mcphee, on 2015-November-10, 02:42, said:

Sadly rebidding spades has created a problem. I prefer a raise to 3C setting a game force and leaving us ample room to explore slam.


Exactly, without knowing the system better, I don't know what alternatives there were. You have a double fit and are looking for a third that you'll only find if opps have 12+ hearts.

I'm not convinced 3 is forcing for everybody, but one of 2 then 3 and an immediate 3 will be.
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#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 04:44

Agree with the objectors to 2. We wasted a round of bidding, and then got doubly punished for it by partner gobbling up another level.

If we were unsure whether 3 would be forcing, we are playing solitaire and we certainly could not have been sure 2 was forcing.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#7 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 06:01

Absent agreements about how to deal with reverses, I would splinter after 2. Maybe the 4-4 fit will play better than the 5-4 one... probably not, but it also gets across more about the strength of my hand than 3, and more about its texture than 4 - and saves some room for slamhunting.
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#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 09:30

 Jinksy, on 2015-November-10, 06:01, said:

Absent agreements about how to deal with reverses, I would splinter after 2. Maybe the 4-4 fit will play better than the 5-4 one... probably not, but it also gets across more about the strength of my hand than 3, and more about its texture than 4 - and saves some room for slamhunting.

One big problem with splintering here is that I agree with your "probably not" assessment and it will be difficult to correct the final contract back to Clubs, once you have wrung the Diamond bell.

There are many cases where we can visualize a 4-4 fit playing for more tricks; here, I believe we could lose control.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 10:16

 ggwhiz, on 2015-November-09, 16:08, said:

Yes I would bid 4 looking for slam and after that I fail to see the problem. If partner doesn't have a diamond control, neither do I.


The problem is that 5 can matchpoint rather poorly vs. 3nt/4nt. Might even be down while NT makes. After 4, should 4nt to be to play or rkc? What should 4 mean?

I agree with the 3 bidders instead of 2 on this hand. After 3 is reverse bidder supposed to cue, or pattern out? After 3 you are bidding 3nt?

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#10 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 12:03

 Stephen Tu, on 2015-November-10, 10:16, said:

I agree with the 3 bidders instead of 2 on this hand. After 3 is reverse bidder supposed to cue, or pattern out? After 3 you are bidding 3nt?

[spoiler]Partner has QAKJQxxxAKJxx. 5 is down (bottom). 5 is down on a diamond lead but makes 6 in practice because this time opener leader had KJx of diamonds and it's pretty tough to lead from this into the reverse bidder's 2nd suit. 5 also nets you a 5% MP score, because as we all know 5m sucks at MP when there are alternatives. NT makes 10 but usually 11 on the heart lead.

What struck me is that a full 40% of the field found their way to 6 and made it, for 80%, so 3nt/4nt is only around 35%. Included among the 6 bidders were 4 of the top players in the room. Are reverse sequences just that infrequent that it's hard to get to the right spot even for normally good, experienced players? Or is 6 the "right" spot, given that a diamond lead is probably anti-percentage unless opening leader has both AK? Should these pairs be embarrassed that they got to 6 or is this actually a good thing in the long run? Maybe they had some auction that left them no way to stop in 4nt, so just bid 6 anyway because MP?


I think that after responder shows club support, opener's emphasis should be on choice of contract rather than slam. For me a 3H bid would show doubt about strain and responder certainly shouldn't bid 3NT next.

Playing standard without complex agreements, I would probably end up in 6C too after an auction similar to:

1C - 1S
2D - 3C*
4NT* - 6C

Where 3C is natural G/F and 4NT is quantitative.

Minor slam hands at MPs are especially tough because you can't easily use the space between 3NT and 5m to investigate. This layout is also pretty unlucky (if you count getting to a making slam as unlucky).

Opener doesn't need to have the AKJ of hearts opposite your void! If you can change opener's hand to: x KJx AJxx AKxxx which is barely enough to reverse, 6C would legitimately be the best contract.
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#11 User is offline   KurtGodel 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 18:51

Why didn't we support partner with 4 decent trumps, a void, support for their second suit, and controls in our suit (as well as a potential trick source)?
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#12 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-November-10, 22:08

It was extremely difficult to come up with a hand where a club slam was not makeable or making. Here, it would be making except against a few noted pairs.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#13 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 22:31

I completely agree with rebidding 3 rather than 2 . You have a great hand for partner no matter what partner holds. So give partner a positive response, give partner the important news about the club fit, and let partner further describe his/her hand.

You keep all options open including . Should partner decide to bid 3 with 3 or doubleton QJ, you may find a nice game. If partner bids 3 looking for some help for NT, you'll still get to bid 3 and show 5 .

The most important thing though is showing the fit. It may let partner start minor suit slam exploration or let partner be more comfortable bidding NT knowing that tricks are likely to be available.

In the actual auction, you see what failing to identify the fit does. Now, you've got to guess whether to explore for a slam or not. The problem at matchpoints is that NT may be the best spot. If you had shown the fit and partner bid NT, it's much easier to sit. But without having done so, it's more a question of trying to catch up and show the fit now or not.

Tough call, not sure what I'd do.


Comment on partner's hand --
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#14 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-November-11, 23:41

IMO, the way to avoid reversing into a Qxxx suit (which sucks) is to make the distortion earlier with a prepared 2nt opening, and live with it when Responder Texas' up to 4. That stiff spade Queen in support for pard's six-bagger might be just fine.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2015-November-12, 11:49

Reversing into a bad suit is not super desirable, but I think 2nt has it's problems also. Besides sometimes getting to 4S when 3nt was better, 2nt is also known as the "slam killer" opening. If responder's hand were different, and slam were missed after 2nt-3h-3s-3nt (responder having some S/D or S/C 2 suiter, borderline for bidding 4m), would we now be blaming opener for opening 2nt instead of 1?

And even on this hand, opening 2nt garners a poor result in practice when the lead isn't found.
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#16 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-November-13, 09:49

Keep the space, start with 2 to get partner's shape. If he bids 2NT to show 5431 and 3 with 5422 you have won a level of bidding hen you bid 3 later.
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#17 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2015-November-13, 10:39

As one of the 6c bidders, I bid this intentionally on the same auction Stephen gave. A big part of my reasoning was that a lead into openers second suit was unlikely unless I made it easy by providing a slow cuebidding auction.
Adam W. Meyerson
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