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3H or 4C?

#1 User is offline   2200 

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Posted 2015-October-01, 08:48

Teams, uncontested auction, you hold
xx
Axxxxx
KJ
KJx

pd opens 1C
1C-1H
2C-2D
3D-??

3H,describing a 6-card suit, or 4C showing support first?
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#2 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-October-01, 09:05

5, partner denied reverse values and IMO also doubleton honor in hearts, I have a lot of trouble to imagine a hand that produces a good slam.
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#3 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2015-October-01, 13:55

Axx x axx Axxxxx is a good slam and it's the right 12 count and a questionable 3D call. Many 6-4's with a spade control can throw 6C against the wall. But I'm in no hurry. I'll mark time with 3H and pull 3N to 4c.
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#4 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2015-October-01, 17:31

3n 4h 5c 6c are all feasible contracts and it seems wrong to just haphazardly guess at any of them. Openers hand might be KQx void Qxxx AQxxxx (i like 3n) x Kx Axxx AQxxxx where i really like 6c. So relax bid 3h (in case 4h looks good) and see what happens.
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#5 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2015-October-01, 17:54

View Post2200, on 2015-October-01, 08:48, said:

Teams, uncontested auction, you hold
xx
Axxxxx
KJ
KJx

pd opens 1C
1C-1H
2C-2D
3D-??

3H,describing a 6-card suit, or 4C showing support first?


This is a tough problem.
  • I don't think there is a way to show club support and then show a 6 bagger in hearts, further heart bids would sound like cues for clubs.
  • If I bid 3H now I would be end-playing partner into raising to 4H with a singleton on a lot of 64 hands, where I might lose 2 spades and 2 hearts.

All in all at imps I would bid 4C and give up on the hearts. This gives me a chance to get to 6C when it is right or play 5C otherwise. I am assuming partner
  • won't open 1C and rebid clubs with 2245.
  • won't ever raise to 3D without 4.


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#6 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2015-October-02, 04:12

View PostFluffy, on 2015-October-01, 09:05, said:

5, partner denied reverse values and IMO also doubleton honor in hearts, I have a lot of trouble to imagine a hand that produces a good slam.


I think this is unduly pessimistic? I would make some kind of slam investigation.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-October-02, 04:24

Depends on a number of things:
- might partner have bid differently (opened 1, rebid 2, rebid 1NT) with 2245 without a spade stopper?
- how likely are opps to remain silent with a 10-card spade fit? vulnerability?
- could partner still bid a natural 4 with a doubleton hearts if I bid 4 now?
- 3 by either partner now shows half a stop I suppose? Or something else? It would be nice to have it as COG but probably it isn't.
- is my 2 bid systemic? Would p prefer to show doubleton heart support rather than a 4-card diamonds?

If p is not very unlikely to have a doubleton hearts and can't show it later then I want to bid my hearts again. I don't think he will raise on a small singleton. He can always rebid diamonds if nothing else fits.
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-October-02, 10:02

3 will fetch 4 almost all the time. Picture xx x AQxx AQxxxx. We can't bid 3 and then pull to 5 since that is a cuebid, not an offer to play.

Now we lose 2 and usually 3 trump tricks. Meanwhile we have 11 tops in clubs.

Ax x Axxx Axxxxx makes slam good, and I don't think that opener should bid any differently....while 2 is best played as simply an artificial force, there are many hands on which, coincidentally, responder has diamonds, so we need to be able to raise with 4=6. Besides, we can often find notrump next if it is a good contract...partner probably needs to help in spades for that to be the case, and then he can probe for or bid 3N himself.


I think we have no real choice but to bid 4. With luck, partner bids 4, we 4 and partner, with a spade control, pushes to the slam: if he holds 3 Aces and 4=6, he should appreciate the value of his controls.
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#9 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-October-02, 10:30

I'm with Fluffy. Partner made a minimum rebid and I have a so-so 12 count, made modestly better by partner's bidding. 5 is enough for me.
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#10 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2015-October-02, 11:40

View Postmikeh, on 2015-October-02, 10:02, said:

3 will fetch 4 almost all the time. Picture xx x AQxx AQxxxx. We can't bid 3 and then pull to 5 since that is a cuebid, not an offer to play.

Now we lose 2 and usually 3 trump tricks. Meanwhile we have 11 tops in clubs.

Ax x Axxx Axxxxx makes slam good, and I don't think that opener should bid any differently....while 2 is best played as simply an artificial force, there are many hands on which, coincidentally, responder has diamonds, so we need to be able to raise with 4=6. Besides, we can often find notrump next if it is a good contract...partner probably needs to help in spades for that to be the case, and then he can probe for or bid 3N himself.


I think we have no real choice but to bid 4. With luck, partner bids 4, we 4 and partner, with a spade control, pushes to the slam: if he holds 3 Aces and 4=6, he should appreciate the value of his controls.


For once I agree with Mike, but that's only because I said the same thing earlier.
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Posted 2015-October-06, 03:42

Thanks all for the replies.

Just as the majority, 4makes things easy for potential club slam.
In reality, partner holds:

x
Kx
AQxx
Axxxxx

6,though far from being laydown, still not a bad chance.(4-1,QJ9x behind 10, 2-2)

The problem of 3 bid, is that parnter could have stiff heart honor and would still be forced to "signoff" 4.So you can't gain anything by bidding 3H,because you still have guesswork.You still don't know if parnter has Kx,Qx, stiff K or Q in hearts.
If pd has stiff K, 4H could be played, but if it's stiff Q, then it's almost useless, and 5 is much better.

If it's pairs, you have a more difficult choice, because either you stop in 4H, hoping +1, or try to gamble marginal 6C.
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