[Kungsgeten]

This may fit better in the natural system forum, but I was thinking in a nebulous diamond context.

So say the auction goes like this:

1D-(Pass)-1NT-(Pass)

1D is nebulous: Real diamond suit or 15--17 NT. 1NT is natural (I guess 2C would be GF and 2D perhaps INV+, not sure).

What should opener do with the strong no trump?

Is there a better response structure which solves this problem?

A solution ofcourse is to play strong no trump instead of a weak one, or if playing strong club make 1C start at 16+ and use a 12--15 1NT opening.

The reason for asking is that I've been thinking about adding a mini NT in our Swedish club structure when green vs red:

1C = 12--14 NT or 17+ (20+ if bal)
1D = Real diamond suit, 11--19 or 15--17 NT
1M = 5+ suit, 11--16
1NT = 9--11
2C = 5+ suit, 12--16
2D = 18--19 NT

[mgoetze]

Well, the obvious idea to me would be to tighten up your requirements for the 1NT response, limit it to say 8-10, which makes it safe for opener to invite (2NT) with 16-17 (and pass with 15). You'll need to be able to bid 11+ hands with clubs, either make 2♣ non-GF or use 3♣ as natural invite (I prefer the latter).

[rbforster]

mgoetze, on 2015-September-17, 08:57, said:

Well, the obvious idea to me would be to tighten up your requirements for the 1NT response, limit it to say 8-10, which makes it safe for opener to invite (2NT) with 16-17 (and pass with 15). You'll need to be able to bid 11+ hands with clubs, either make 2♣ non-GF or use 3♣ as natural invite (I prefer the latter).

I agree and this is the resolution I came to when I played this style. 1D-1N was limited to have no game interest opposite whatever balanced range opener might have, and consequently opener would only bid on with a distributional hand (typically 2m, natural). Because this made for a wide range of invitational NT hands, I used 1D-2N as a sound invitation (13-14hcp), while if you had an 10-12hcp lighter invite (opposite a possible 13-15 NT opener), we bid 2C first (natural and invite+, or balanced light invite) instead assuming we had at least 4 clubs (or 2D inverted if 4D). The 2C continuations had some artificial responses, but the key was that 1D-2C-2D showed any bad hand by opener (9-11ish unbalanced, couldn't be a NT one) and the light balanced hand just passed.

[efe_]

Kungsgeten, Hello again,
What do you open with 441♦4 and 11-16 HCP? Your system has problem with this. Precision players open 2♦ or 2♥ with short diamonds and 11-15. But your 2♦ goes to 18-19 Bal.

Furthermore 9-11 NT range is not allowed in many official organizations. You can not open automatically with 9 HCPs. It is less than average hand.
If you do not open all 9's, so you play 10-11 NT. This range makes difficult to put other balanced ranges.

As I understood, you play dynamic system. Your NT ranges change depending on vulnerability. I suggest you try to check Bocchi's "big bang" system. It is complicated but very good system.. And also some polish club systems.

[Kungsgeten]

efe_, on 2015-September-18, 19:46, said:

Kungsgeten, Hello again,
What do you open with 441♦4 and 11-16 HCP? Your system has problem with this. Precision players open 2♦ or 2♥ with short diamonds and 11-15. But your 2♦ goes to 18-19 Bal.

Furthermore 9-11 NT range is not allowed in many official organizations. You can not open automatically with 9 HCPs. It is less than average hand.
If you do not open all 9's, so you play 10-11 NT. This range makes difficult to put other balanced ranges.

As I understood, you play dynamic system. Your NT ranges change depending on vulnerability. I suggest you try to check Bocchi's "big bang" system. It is complicated but very good system.. And also some polish club systems.

Hi! We do not play a dynamic NT range (yet), but I have been thinking about it. I have bought the Big Bang system notes from Dan's site and I agree that it seems like a nice system. Right now we enjoy our current system so changing the entire system is not on the menu at the moment.

In our system we treat 4-4-1-4 as balanced. 12-14 is opened 1C, 15-17 is opened 1NT (would be opened 1D if we change our 1D opening green vs red), 18-19 is opened 2D, 20+ is opened 1C. It hasn't been a problem yet. There are Swedish Club players who use 2D as a precision style opening though. You recommend Polish Club as an alternative system, but they do not have any method for 4-4-1-4 hands. Fredin-Lindkvist, when playing Swedish Club, actually included the Precision 2D opening in their 1C opening. This works if playing relays like they did. A bigger problem is actually the 4-4-0-5 pattern, which we open 2C if 12-16 and that feels really awkward. If we have other 4441 patterns (including 4 diamonds) in the 11-19 range, we open 1D.

I know 9-11 1NT is not allowed in ACBL (at least not if you want to play conventional bids, like Stayman, over it). I have never been to the Land of the Free though, and in Sweden there is no restrictions playing a natural 1NT opening, no matter the range. If we were to play 10-11 1NT though, why would that be more difficult than 9-11?

[efe_]

Quote

If we were to play 10-11 1NT though, why would that be more difficult than 9-11?

Sorry for missunderstanding. I meant, when playing 9-11 NT, you have to handle other ranges. You need another room for 15-17.

Here is my suggestion:

1♣= a- 12-14 HCP, All balanced hands without 5M, including 5♦332 (maybe some 5m4M22)
b- 17+
1♦= a-18-19 HCP, Bal hand
b- Real D suit. 5+♦ or 4♦441 (unbalanced or semi-bal)
1♥/♠= 5+ suit, 11-16
1NT: 15-17
2♣=5+
2♦= Precision style, short in diamonds

when white vs red:
1♣= 14-16 NT or 17+
1♦= 18-19 Bal or Natural diamonds
1♥/♠= 5+
1NT= 10-13 Bal


whenever you open 1D and then rebid NT, it shows 18-19 Bal

[Kungsgeten]

Your suggestion seems like a very playable system efe_. The white vs red 1C would probably have to change our 1C structure a lot though, and I am not sure that I like 1NT as 10-13 since it is both preemptive but also constructive. If you open a 9-11 mini NT then you know that you're playing against the field (or the other table) and you're opening a hand that most will pass. Playing a 10-13 NT however there is a good chance that others will open that hand too (at least in the 12-13 range) and I think this leads to different tactics. I may be wrong though. I also think that 14-17 NT may be a tad too wide.

Having 18-19 NT in 1D is probably better than having a 15-17 NT there. At the moment we play 1D as natural unbalanced, 11--19 (might have longer clubs), and I really like the continuations after this opening. Still I've been thinking about having a strong NT there when green vs red, in order to include a mini NT.

An interesting thing if you include a 2D Precision opening is what to do with 17+ and 4-4-1-4? I guess you would either include it in 1C (which is totally fine, but if you've chosen to exclude 18-19 NT from there then I think the edge will be lost if a 17-19 4-4-1-4 must be shown somehow) or treat it as 18-19 NT.

Removing 17-19 with 5+ diamonds, and 18-19 NT, from the strong variants in 1C open up a lot of possiblities. We play:

1C-1D (1D is either 0-7 any or at flat 8-10 NT with no 4 card major)---
1NT = Forcing. 22+ NT or GF with a minor. Now responder bids 2C with enough to force game vs 22+ NT, and otherwise describes his hand with transfers etc.
2D = 20-21 NT
2NT to 3D = GF hands with 5-5 distribution

1C-1M;
2D = 3+ major support, 17+
2NT = 20+ NT/4441 with 1-2 card support
3X = Natural 20+ with 5+ diamonds, 0-2 card support

[efe_]

Your another disadvantage is 1D opening. Playing 1♦ opening as "Natural or strong balanced hand" means: 1♦=2+card. Partner will be pressure when (s)he has 3-♦ and 5- HCP. If passes you may be playing 1♦ contract with 4-5 cards. I assume 1♦>1NT shows 6-10 p.

Then if we go back to your actual question,
I would bid 2NT (if it does not have any conventional meaning in your system) with 16/17 HCP, pass with 15.
Pard moves 2NT with 8+ and passes with 7-

[yunling]

Bocchi-Duboin played 1♦ as natural or 18-19 balanced in their early years but dropped them afterwards so it might not be a great idea to include strong NT into 1♦.

The range of 1NT opposite a possible 15-17NT seems never to be comfortable to me. Weak notrump systems tries to cover this problem by responding a lot of 3-card major on weak hands as well as a light 2C response.

[Kungsgeten]

yunling, on 2015-September-20, 12:31, said:

Bocchi-Duboin played 1♦ as natural or 18-19 balanced in their early years but dropped them afterwards so it might not be a great idea to include strong NT into 1♦.

The range of 1NT opposite a possible 15-17NT seems never to be comfortable to me. Weak notrump systems tries to cover this problem by responding a lot of 3-card major on weak hands as well as a light 2C response.

Ofcourse! It did not occur to me that a possible three card major is a solution. I just checked the Kokish-Kraft Weak Trump system notes, and this is the way they play.

[helene_t]

Isn't it possible to design something around
1♥ =relay
1♠= natural
1NT=nonforcing with 4-5 hearts.

I have thought a little about it, unsuccesfully, but still I would expect that someone better in system design than I could come up with something workable.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on 2015-September-21, 02:13, said:

Isn't it possible to design something around
1♥ =relay
1♠= natural
1NT=nonforcing with 4-5 hearts.

I have thought a little about it, unsuccessfully, but still I would expect that someone better in system design than I could come up with something workable.

My system uses something along these lines:
1♥ = INV+ relay
1♠ = 4+ spades, NF
1NT = 4+ hearts, NF

It works well within the context of my system where 1♦ is real but there are some issues in making it work for a nebulous diamond opening.

The other response structure I rather like is the skip bid method:
1♥ = most hands without 4 hearts
1♠ = 4+ hearts, <4 spades
1NT = 4+ hearts, 4+ spades, weak
2♣ = 4+ hearts, 4+ spades, INV+ (or you can use this as purely invitational and one or more higher responses for GF hands with both majors if preferred)

One day I will get around to writing this idea up in more detail.