[yunling]

The system base is a bit like Benlessard's:
1M is natural and unlimited.
1NT is 12-14 and contains 5 card major hands,2M is intermediate, so minimum 1-suited hands are not included in the 1M opening.

As Zelandakh has pointed out before, 1NT and 2x responses to 1M opening should take charge of 3 different ranges: 1.weak 2.invitational 3.gameforcing
Standard American use 1NT for 1 and 2x for 2+3.
2/1 use 1NT for 1+2 and 2x for 3.
Zel himself use 1NT (to 1S opening) as 2+3 and 2x for 1.
For Ben, there is no bid for invites and 1NT is overloaded for all hands except some weak shapely ones.

I'm considering of combining 1+3 in 1NT and use 2x for 2.
So something like
1S-?
1NT=forcing,weak without much shape or any GF
2C=weak 6+D or invite w 4+H
2D=weak 6+H or invite w/o 4H
2H=weak 5H and another place to play(either 2S or 5+m)
2S=constructive
else=undefined, reserving for some holes or raises


1S-1NT-?
2C=15+HCP, any
……2D=GF relay, else=natural weak
2D/H=4+, natural limited
……2NT=GF relay
2S=4+C limited
……2NT=GF relay
else=the same as your preferred gazzilli structure

[yunling]

Upsides:
1.Stay low on invitational/misfit hands(can play in 2 of a suit)
2.Good for finding 5-3 fits in the other major

Downsides:
1.Not enough bidding space for GF hands
2.Interfere over 1NT can be a problem

Comments?

[rbforster]

I tried to do this once, over a standard or limited 1M opener and where 1NT forcing was

- a weak hand without much shape (pass openers natural rebid, or preference to 2M to play)
- an invitational hand, that would bid similarly to 2/1 after a 1N(f) response (raise, 2N, or jump in new suit)
- a GF hand without support (still had Jacoby, other jump raises), these hands bid the cheapest new suit as a GF

I found this to be overloaded for the non-fitting GF hands, even having taken out those with support or strong single suits (via direct jump bids) and even without dealing with interference issues. It seems like I was trying to do most of 1, all of 2, and most of the 3 and perhaps unsurprisingly it didn't work even with lots of artificial follow ups of try to unwind the strong hand types (the goal was to offer 2/1 weak NF responses).

You seem to be trying something not quite as unreasonable, so maybe it can work. My advice would be to test your system with the GF hands and make sure you are quite happy with how those get bid uncontested. If you can't get that part to work, the rest isn't worth trying to fix.

[Kungsgeten]

I think it can work, but I am not sure how well. I think 1S-1N; 2D-2H should be a relay instead of 2NT (what would 2H be otherwise?). A problem (to me) is that some hands may want to show rather than ask, but I guess that is a price to pay if relays are the only GF method. Perhaps some GF hands could be handled by 2C and 2D?

Is 1M truly unlimited and forcing, like 11-37?

A thought is to skip Gazzilli, but that may be a bit of a trade off. Then perhaps:

1S--1N;
2C = 4+H or 6+S, forcing
2D = 4+D, NF
2H = 4+m, forcing
2S = 4+C, NF
2N+ = Various strong shapely hands?

Over 2C responder can relay or bid 2M as a preference (opener corrects to 2S if he has 6+S). If opener bids 2H (showing hearts and spades) after the relay, then 2S could relay again.

Over 2D you can use 2H as a relay.

Over 2H you could use either 2S or 2N as a relay (or both), it depends on the strength promised etc.

Over 2S 2NT becomes the relay.


This is all much easier over a 1H opening

[Kungsgeten]

I actually like the thought of 1S-2H. I wonder if it can be used in other structures, like:

1S---
1N = Semi-forcing
2C = GF (semi)balanced or unbal with minor(s)
2D = 5+ hearts, 8+ (if only 5 then limit+ values)
2H = 5 hearts weak, two places to play
2S = Constructive

[Trick13]

I can tell your our system over 1M which also has transfer responses, which we have played a lot in the last three years and like, but it is for a limited (11-15) 1M and may not translate to an unlimited opener. I haven't tried to adjust the ranges.

In your terms our '1NT' is inv or GF, and our '2/1s' are weak, highly inv, or GF.

1M ...
... 1M+1 = forcing range-finder, usually a limited hand 8-11, but some 12-13 patterns, and some GF.
... 1M+2 ... 2M-1 = transfers, these are either weak in the next suit, or strong (12+) in the suit bid, or have support; note 2M-1 may be a pre-emptive raise to the 2-level.

All bids 2M and above are raises of one sort or another...

... 2M = a constructive (9-11) 3-card raise or the equivalent; 3-way game tries ensue.
... 2M+1 = a mini splinter (7-9) in an unspecified suit or a void splinter in an unspecified suit
... 2M+2 = Jacoby inv+ (12+)
... 2M+3 = a prime 4-card raise (9-11), no shortage, not 4333
... 2M+4 = GF 4-card raise with an unspecified 5-card side suit, headed by either 2 of top 3, or all top 3 honours
... 3M = pre-emptive
... 3M+1 = midi splinter in unspecified suit (10-13)
... 3M+2 ...4M-1 = a maxi splinter (14-15)
... 4M = to play, weak, or sound but no slam interest

Step-wise responses mean that 1S-3C is Jacoby, 1H-1S is the range-finder, 1H-3S is all midi-splinters, 1H-3NT is a maxi-splinter in S, 1H-1NT is weak with C or strong with S, etc...
The unspecified things are relayed out.



The transfers work like this (T = transfer R = response)...
Opener must accept the transfer unless he has a freak (6-5 or 7-card suit)

1M - 2R; 2T ...
... Pass = weak 6+cards in suit T, 0-7 HCP (or a 2-level pre-empt if 2T = 2M)
... 2M = a 9-11 raise with something in suit R
... 2NT = 12-13 with 5+R, usually only 0-1M
... New suit = GF with 5+R and 4+ in new suit
... 3R = GF with 6+R
... 3M = GF raise with 4+R, may be looking for a 4-4 fit that plays better than the 5-3
... 3NT = 5R-2M-3-3
... 4M = fit with 5+R, 1 of the top 3 honours in R, and a control in the other two suits, looking for the magic 5 + 5 + 2.

The weak side of the transfers won't work well if opener is unlimited. In Precision there are hands where, after partner opens 1M, you can be certain the opponents have game, and many others you can be certain that you belong in a part-score; but in Standard, even if you have 0 HCP partner will often have enough to stop game, and if you have 6 HCP game is quite possible. So your weak transfers I think would need to guarantee responding values, and partner then is often not completing the transfer and I am not sure how well bidding will proceed.

[Trick13]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-September-15, 02:09, said:

...
1S--1N;
2C = 4+H or 6+S, forcing
2D = 4+D, NF
2H = 4+m, forcing
2S = 4+C, NF
2N+ = Various strong shapely hands?
...

We play (opposite a limited opener)
1S - 1N ...
... 2C = 3H or 6+S
... 2D = not 3H nor 6+S
... 2H = 4H + 5+S min
... 2S = 4H + 5+S max
... 2N+ = various shapely hands 6-5 or 7S

After 1S - 1N; 2C ...
... 2D inquiry about S
... ... 2H = 3H+5S
... ... 2S = 6S min
... ... 2N+ = 6S max, pattern out
... 2H inquiry about range
... ... 2S = min
... ... 2N+ = max, pattern out
... 2S = to play
... 2N = 12-13 highly inv


After 1S - 1N; 2D ...
... 2H = inquiry about range
... ... 2S = min
... ... 2N+ = max, pattern out

... 2S = to play
... 2N = 12-13 highly inv


1H - 1S works the same.

[Zelandakh]

In theory there ought to be enough space to get this to work but you need to work out the details. The auctions after 1NT are critical and it would be good if you can post what you are intending to do not only in uncontested auctions but also after various forms of interference. My instinct is that this will work though.

In addition, is completion of the weak/INV transfers forced with any hand without game interest or can Opener break that? If they can then you also need to consider how to differentiate between hand types with the resulting cramping of space. In the same general area, is 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ going to be your 3 card limit raise or can it be on a doubleton? If the former then you have something of a problem with a 2=1=5=5 invite and either way a 1=2=5=5 invite might be awkward since you need 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3m for one-suited invitational hands.

Finally, you have no way of showing a weak hand with long clubs at the moment. Presumably you will either have that go through 1NT or an immediate 3♣ response so it is not a problem but do not forget to put it in at some point. If you choose to go through 1NT then think about the auction 1♠ - 1NT; 2red and how you want to differentiate between a weak hand with clubs and a GF one. If you use the immediate 3♣ response then you are giving up some options for raises but that is easier to compensate for, so that seems the more logical choice. You will have some problems with this though - the range is wide enough to make Opener's decisions awkward on occasion.

Otherwise, the best way of progressing is to take yourself to a Teaching table sitting at all 4 seats and bid through as many hands as possible using your structure to find out where the holes are. That might lead you towards optimising the methods. I feel that there is some space for that and that you will find out quite a lot from a period of intensive play-testing. I certainly did with my ideas and this is an important part of the development process. It would be good if you come back and post the updated structure afterwards too - lots of us here are interested in this kind of work.

[helene_t]

yunling, on 2015-September-14, 09:28, said:

1S-?
[....]
2H=weak 5H and another place to play(either 2S or 5+m)

I think this is problematic because opener's 2♠ rebid presumably is p/c, but with six good spades or seven modest ones he would like to bid it as "to play".

[yunling]

Thanks for all the replies.

rbforster, on 2015-September-14, 11:03, said:

My advice would be to test your system with the GF hands and make sure you are quite happy with how those get bid uncontested.

Have tried that on a lot of hands, both by myself and with my partner. Not 100% satisfied but works fairly well.

Kungsgeten, on 2015-September-15, 02:09, said:

I think it can work, but I am not sure how well. I think 1S-1N; 2D-2H should be a relay instead of 2NT (what would 2H be otherwise?). A problem (to me) is that some hands may want to show rather than ask, but I guess that is a price to pay if relays are the only GF method. Perhaps some GF hands could be handled by 2C and 2D?

Is 1M truly unlimited and forcing, like 11-37?

A thought is to skip Gazzilli

In fact I'm using 2H as a relay——the original post is only a rough outline.
There's not so much space after 2m, so almost all GF hands go through 1NT. Relay breaks are possible on the second round, though.
Not really "unlimited", I mean 10-20 or so.
I don't know how you split the ranges in this thought, though. How will the GF hands investigate slam? Intermediate balanced hands are also a problem.

Zelandakh, on 2015-September-15, 07:12, said:

In addition, is completion of the weak/INV transfers forced with any hand without game interest or can Opener break that? If they can then you also need to consider how to differentiate between hand types with the resulting cramping of space. In the same general area, is 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 2♠ going to be your 3 card limit raise or can it be on a doubleton?

Opener break with reverse strength, so it can be a bit confusing and require some work. 2S can be made on a doubleton. Agree that 5-5 minor hands are hard to handle, but at least 1S-2D-2H-2N promise 5-4 in minors so not that bad.
Still working on this with my pard...

helene_t, on 2015-September-16, 03:29, said:

I think this is problematic because opener's 2♠ rebid presumably is p/c, but with six good spades or seven modest ones he would like to bid it as "to play".

Since minimum hands with 6 spades are opened 2S, it is not a serious problem here, except for some 6-4 hands.

[Zelandakh]

yunling, on 2015-September-20, 09:21, said:

Opener break with reverse strength, so it can be a bit confusing and require some work.

So let's consider the auction 1♠ - 2♦; 3♣, presumably showing 16-20 and at least 5-4 shape. With a minimum hand of 6 hearts and no black suit fit I assume Responder has to bid 3♥ here. What about a weak x6y4? And how does Responder offer choice of game with a maximum for the weak hand type? How smooth the auctions for the invitational hands will be is directly related to how many bids need to be devoted to the weak hands.

yunling, on 2015-September-20, 09:21, said:

2S can be made on a doubleton.

Good and bad in that. Presumably you show the 3 card limit raise immediately then and commit to the 3 level. I made the opposite design choice in my system but do not feel strongly about it. It does at least take care of the 2344 hands so you can get away without a natural 2NT sequence.

yunling, on 2015-September-20, 09:21, said:

Agree that 5-5 minor hands are hard to handle, but at least 1S-2D-2H-2N promise 5-4 in minors so not that bad.
Still working on this with my pard...

I get this now. I had thought you would need this 2NT naturally.

yunling, on 2015-September-20, 09:21, said:

Since minimum hands with 6 spades are opened 2S, it is not a serious problem here, except for some 6-4 hands.

This is important to know when it comes to thinking about system. Losing a weak 2♠ opening (of any type) is a serious thing though as it tends to be highly effective. Presumably you are playing 2♦ multi and 2M constructive then.