BBO Discussion Forums: Best T-Walsh Defense? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Best T-Walsh Defense?

Poll: T-Walsh Defense (38 member(s) have cast votes)

Meaning of calls over 1C-1R?

  1. Double = suit bid, Cue = t/o of suit shown (12 votes [31.58%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 31.58%

  2. Double = takeout, Cue = Michaels (5oM 5 unknown minor) (1 votes [2.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  3. Double = takeout, Cue = Raptor (4oM 5+ unknown minor) (7 votes [18.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.42%

  4. Double = oM and diamonds, Cue = oM and clubs (4 votes [10.53%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  5. Double = light t/o, Cue = strong t/o (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Double = strong bal, Cue = t/o, 1NT = two-suited (1 votes [2.63%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.63%

  7. Other (6 votes [15.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

  8. Abstain (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. Double = t/o, Cue = natural (7 votes [18.42%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 18.42%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-07, 06:14

LHO opens 1 (2+ clubs), partner passes, and RHO bids 1 (4+ hearts) or 1 (4+ spades). What should your options be? Assume for the purposes of this poll that partner refuses to play a materially different defense to the two given auctions for memory reasons.

I have tried to list all the reasonable defenses I could think of or have seen others play, please feel free to describe your pet method and I can add it to the poll.

(Note: "oM" in the poll means the major not shown by responder, i.e. spades over 1-1 and hearts over 1-1.)
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#2 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

  • Limit bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,482
  • Joined: 2004-November-02
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, classical music, skiing... but I spend more time earning a living than doing any of those

Posted 2015-September-07, 17:26

You've missed out

Double = t/o of their major
'Cue' at the 1-level = natural

which is a perfectly sensible defines
0

#3 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-07, 17:45

View PostFrancesHinden, on 2015-September-07, 17:26, said:

Double = t/o of their major
'Cue' at the 1-level = natural

Alright, added that one. Wonder what the two people who voted for "Other" like...
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#4 User is offline   akwoo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,309
  • Joined: 2010-November-21

Posted 2015-September-07, 18:39

For memory reasons, I would think I would want to play the same defense as over 1N-2R, and over as many other transfer auctions as possible (possibly including 2D Flannery). Is there a strong reason why that's not a good idea? (Also, what is best over 1N-2R anyway?)

Also, now disregarding memory issues, might the answer depend on whether opps are playing a strong NT or a weak NT (and hence on the 1C opener's range if balanced)?
0

#5 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-07, 19:02

View Postakwoo, on 2015-September-07, 18:39, said:

For memory reasons, I would think I would want to play the same defense as over 1N-2R, and over as many other transfer auctions as possible (possibly including 2D Flannery). Is there a strong reason why that's not a good idea? (Also, what is best over 1N-2R anyway?)

Also, now disregarding memory issues, might the answer depend on whether opps are playing a strong NT or a weak NT (and hence on the 1C opener's range if balanced)?

I think it's pretty safe to assume 1NT will be 14-16 or 15-17. Transfer Walsh with weak NT is exceedingly rare (though it does exist, hi JanM!)

Over 1NT-2R, I guess almost everyone plays double as lead-directing and cue as Michaels. There is a case to be made that double should be takeout of the suit shown, and I believe that case gets stronger the weaker the 1NT opening is. For now let's assume a strong NT and look at some of the differences:

1. Opener's hand is much more tightly defined, which will allow the opponents to judge much better when it is right to defend (and possibly even double you). Therefore you will rarely want to act over 1NT-2R with, say, a (4432) shape, whereas you would routinely want to get into the auction against 1C-1R.

2. You are a level higher - yes, it matters; if you're in 1 on a 4-3 or even 4-2 fit the opponents will almost never be able to punish you, but 3? Oh dear.

3. Responder has shown 5 cards in the suit rather than 4. This means you will almost never want to bid responder's suit naturally - see Frances' defense above - but it also means that opponents are very likely to have found a fit already especially given that 1NT showed 2+ in every suit. Combined with opener having shown more strength, it means we are considerably more likely to end up on defense than after 1C-1R, making "lead-directing" a much more attractive meaning.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2015-September-07, 21:22

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-September-07, 19:02, said:

Over 1NT-2R, I guess almost everyone plays double as lead-directing and cue as Michaels.


Is this (1NT)-P-(2R)?

If so, and if by "cue" you bidding their suit at the 2-level, I think that using this bid for takeout is much too common for your guess about "almost everyone" to be accurate.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#7 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,029
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-September-08, 01:09

Hi,

we play the way Frances wrote, treating the auction the same as, if the suit was bid direct,
instead of via transfer.

This has the advantage of being simple, and keeping the memory low.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#8 User is offline   wodahs 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 2010-November-11

Posted 2015-September-10, 22:22

I like X = takeout of their major, then everything else is transfers. Use the bidding space they opened up to your advantage. So after (1D), then X = takeout of hearts, 1H = spades, 1S = whatever you want a cuebid of 2C to be, 2C = diamonds, transfers as high as you want to go. Leave 1NT out of the transfer ladder if natural, it has positional value.
0

#9 User is offline   Bende 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 149
  • Joined: 2007-January-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Göteborg, Sweden

Posted 2015-September-11, 03:54

dbl = t/o with four cards in oM
cue = t/o without four cards in oM (three cards or very strong)
0

#10 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-11, 06:14

Nice suggestions, wodahs and Bende. There sure are a lot of things one can play here and very little agreement about what's best!
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#11 User is offline   PhilKing 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,240
  • Joined: 2012-June-25

Posted 2015-September-11, 11:23

If you cue the major with a balanced hand lacking four of the other major, you commit yourself unnecessarily.
Just doubling to show a desire to get involved (ostensibly takeout of the major) achieves two key objectives:

1. It keeps us out of trouble, or at any rate the safety factor is greatly increased, because lefty now has to act. Assuming he will generally complete to the major to show three, we are off the hook when righty is 44M with a good hand, for example. If we have to cue 1M to show a takeout double, we will get routinely punished when we have no fit and a minority of the points.

2. When they are in trouble, we can sometimes catch them. After 1-p-1-x, what does lefty do with a 3235, 4234 or 3244 minimum opening?
0

#12 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-11, 14:43

View PostPhilKing, on 2015-September-11, 11:23, said:

2. When they are in trouble, we can sometimes catch them. After 1-p-1-x, what does lefty do with a 3235, 4234 or 3244 minimum opening?

In my partnership, pass. I'm not really worried about being penalised in a 4-3 fit in 1 or a 5-2 fit in 1.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,666
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2015-September-13, 06:14

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-September-07, 19:02, said:

Over 1NT-2R, I guess almost everyone plays double as lead-directing and cue as Michaels.

I remember fred posting a very strong opinion that double should be takeout a few years back. A popular defence in England is for the cue to be a good takeout of their suit with a delayed double being a weaker takeout. Finally, many play that the double shows a real overcall rather than just being lead-directing. I also agree that it is sensible for an I/A pair to have a generic defence against transfers that is used in a variety of situations.

In this specific situation, there is something to be said for playing X = takeout, cue = raptor over 1 and X = hearts, cue = takeout over 1. One thing you have not mentioned is whether 1NT is natural for you or showing the other 2 suits and that may well be of some relevance.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
0

#14 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-13, 06:40

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-September-13, 06:14, said:

I remember fred posting a very strong opinion that double should be takeout a few years back. A popular defence in England is for the cue to be a good takeout of their suit with a delayed double being a weaker takeout. Finally, many play that the double shows a real overcall rather than just being lead-directing. I also agree that it is sensible for an I/A pair to have a generic defence against transfers that is used in a variety of situations.

In this specific situation, there is something to be said for playing X = takeout, cue = raptor over 1 and X = hearts, cue = takeout over 1. One thing you have not mentioned is whether 1NT is natural for you or showing the other 2 suits and that may well be of some relevance.

Well, speaking of strong opinions posted by Fred, I'm pretty sure that another of those was that 1NT in sandwich position should be natural. I also saw Michael Rosenberg say the same thing just yesterday on BridgeWinners. So it didn't really occur to me as a question. ;)
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#15 User is offline   fromageGB 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,679
  • Joined: 2008-April-06

Posted 2015-September-23, 10:47

Now discussed, and we are happy to overcall at the 2-level rather than double to show that suit, and think 1NT more frequent as well as more useful played as Raptor than natural, so we have :

X = takeout with 4 other major, denying 5 card minor
their major = 5-5 minors (with transfer reply if opener does not bid)
1NT = Raptor (4 other major + 5 minor)
other suits (including 2C) = natural

This post has been edited by fromageGB: 2015-September-26, 08:33

0

#16 User is offline   fred 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,597
  • Joined: 2003-February-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, USA

Posted 2015-September-25, 08:26

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-September-13, 06:14, said:

I remember fred posting a very strong opinion that double should be takeout a few years back.

One of us is having memory problems as it is hard for me to imagine that I ever had such an opinion let alone that I felt strongly about it.

Against a strong notrump at least, I believe I have always played DBL of a Jacoby transfer as "lead directing" (ie normally a strong suit with 5+ cards). With a takeout double type hand, I believe my approach has always been to Pass and then to judge whether or not to enter the auction at my next turn. I believe I have always played a direct cue bid as Michaels.

"Always" in the above paragraph means "for roughly the past 20 years".

Today I feel fairly strongly that this is the right way to play. It is possible that I once felt differently and don't remember, but I doubt it.

If you can find any Forums posts by me that support your assertion, I would be very interested in reading them!

Fred Gitelman
Brdige Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com
0

#17 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2015-September-25, 09:08

Is one of you talking about xfer Walsh after 1C, and the other talking about a transfer after a 1nt opening?
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#18 User is offline   mgoetze 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,942
  • Joined: 2005-January-28
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cologne, Germany
  • Interests:Sleeping, Eating

Posted 2015-September-25, 09:11

View Postaguahombre, on 2015-September-25, 09:08, said:

Is one of you talking about xfer Walsh after 1C, and the other talking about a transfer after a 1nt opening?

No, if you follow the chain of quotes I think you'll find they're both talking about transfers after a 1NT opening.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
0

#19 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2015-September-25, 09:16

View Postfred, on 2015-September-25, 08:26, said:

One of us is having memory problems as it is hard for me to imagine that I ever had such an opinion let alone that I felt strongly about it.

Against a strong notrump at least, I believe I have always played DBL of a Jacoby transfer as "lead directing" (ie normally a strong suit with 5+ cards). With a takeout double type hand, I believe my approach has always been to Pass and then to judge whether or not to enter the auction at my next turn. I believe I have always played a direct cue bid as Michaels.

"Always" in the above paragraph means "for roughly the past 20 years".

Today I feel fairly strongly that this is the right way to play. It is possible that I once felt differently and don't remember, but I doubt it.

If you can find any Forums posts by me that support your assertion, I would be very interested in reading them!

Fred Gitelman
Brdige Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com


Here is a post which very much doesn't support Zel's assertion:

http://www.bridgebas...lan/#entry52275

And here is a post that shows that Zel used to be better at knowing what Fred thought:

http://www.bridgebas...post__p__532729
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
1

#20 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,516
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-September-25, 09:20

View Postfred, on 2015-September-25, 08:26, said:

One of us is having memory problems as it is hard for me to imagine that I ever had such an opinion let alone that I felt strongly about it.

Against a strong notrump at least, I believe I have always played DBL of a Jacoby transfer as "lead directing" (ie normally a strong suit with 5+ cards). With a takeout double type hand, I believe my approach has always been to Pass and then to judge whether or not to enter the auction at my next turn.

(...)

If you can find any Forums posts by me that support your assertion, I would be very interested in reading them!


Sorry Fred, nothing interesting here - Zel misremembers:
http://www.bridgebas...dpost__p__52275
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users