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Cheating Allegations

#541 User is offline   bbentzen 

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Posted 2015-September-19, 14:59

Don't compare what Mike Passell did to any of the cheaters. His so-Called offence was totally innocent, and has nothing do with cheating. The ACBL reaction was way out-of-line.
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#542 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2015-September-19, 16:34

Could it be that the 4th pair didn't qualify for Chennai!? Or maybe they didn't qualify in Croatia... OMG!

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#543 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2015-September-19, 22:18

View PostWesleyC, on 2015-September-19, 12:09, said:

Of the 3 top pairs that have been found 'guilty' of cheating (with potentially another couple to come), ALL of them have generated 'whispers' in top bridge circles.
My take away is that, at least at a World Class level, players are actually very good at recognizing when something suspicious is going on.
I don't think you can draw that conclusion, since the reason they were caught and outed were the verysame whispers. So, there's still the possibility of better cheaters that you haven't caught.
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#544 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 01:42

Let's see what France can do, some of their players might be enlisted for transnationals.
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#545 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 02:09

View PostAntrax, on 2015-September-19, 22:18, said:

I don't think you can draw that conclusion, since the reason they were caught and outed were the very same whispers. So, there's still the possibility of better cheaters that you haven't caught.


I think I've phrased my idea poorly. I don't think that catching 100% of cheaters is realistic, especially if they use subtle methods and gain only a small advantage. However, the 3 cases revealed so far suggest when many top experts suspect a pair of dubious conduct over many events then that can and should be used to target cheating investigations.
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#546 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 03:53

View PostAntrax, on 2015-September-19, 22:18, said:

I don't think you can draw that conclusion, since the reason they were caught and outed were the very same whispers. So, there's still the possibility of better cheaters that you haven't caught.

Indeed, there were "whispers" about East German athletes in the 1980s, but few were caught. And the authorities did not act even after obviously suspicious results like Schult's and Reinsch's world records in the discus, in 1986 and 1988, which have stood since then. Proof of cheating is hard to obtain and the best cheats are probably still out there.
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#547 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 04:09

Laughable mentioned 2 years punishment just added another VERY important reason to go electronic imo.
"Catch a cheat" will not work as good as they think it will. It never did. But even if it works, what good will it do if the punishments are beyond funny?
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#548 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 04:12

I think that it is absolutely right that cheaters should have an incentive to confess. Then it is just a question of horse-trading how much of an incentive is (1) fair and (2) effective.
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Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#549 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 07:05

But they didn't confess voluntarilly. Or so I think.

Just 2 things:

Allavena said that Boye said that before making public about Fantoni-Nunes he conteacted them and said that if they confessed things wouldn't become public.

Sabine Auken (and probably Roy Welland) were finally convinced that Smirnov-Piekarek were clean and they made a public announcement to ask the whispering to stop.

If you add the 2 facts together I think it is obvious what actually has happened.
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#550 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 07:19

View PostFluffy, on 2015-September-20, 07:05, said:

But they didn't confess voluntarilly. Or so I think.

David Gold on Bridgewinners:

Quote

They were getting nailed. The hard way or the easy way. You will see the evidence soon enough, this has all only just come out. (Btw a friend of mine went through the match v england in opatijia and spotted it easily, and this is a non-expert bridge player).

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#551 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 07:28

Not obvious to me, but never mind.

No confession is "voluntary", in that unless under the influence of physical torture there is always a choice to confess or not to confess, and with each choice comes consequences. I think that it is in the interests of the game that convictions be supported by confessions, and if the perp. has no incentive to confess then confessions will not result. That is no different from the world of criminal prosecutions outside of the bridge world. It does have its detractors: In the USA I understand that a lot of confessions are volunteered by defendants who are innocent, for fear of the consequences of conviction despite their innocence and of the consequent disparity in the sentence.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
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#552 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 16:01

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-September-20, 07:19, said:

David Gold on Bridgewinners:


Does anyone have a link to the video of the match David mentions?
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#553 User is offline   antonylee 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 16:10

View PostFluffy, on 2015-September-20, 01:42, said:

Let's see what France can do, some of their players might be enlisted for transnationals.

Mentioned today on the French Federation forum: The team will be T. Bessis/Volcker, Combescure/Rombaut, de Teissières/Lhuissier, who just finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th of the open selection. (The first pair, Lorenzini/Quantin, is unavailable.)
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#554 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 16:24

Yeah sorry if I was unclear I meant I think France is next up to qualify for the Euros... didn't mean anything else.
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#555 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 20:19

IMO the WBF and NBOs rather than players should investigate cheating allegations. Nevertheless, it's worrying that
  • WBF and NBO officials had been investigating for years but failed to detect several long-suspect pairs allegedly using simple cheating methods, uncovered by a few players in a few weeks.
  • In spite of access to computer and video records, over many years, the authorities haven't yet completed their investigation of world-beating suspect cheats, allegedly using simple consistent methods. What are the prospects that the authorities will deal with some of the (presumably much more numerous) cheating pairs, who occasionally use more sophisticated methods.

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#556 User is offline   captyogi 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 22:16

View PostPhantomSac, on 2015-September-20, 16:24, said:

Yeah sorry if I was unclear I meant I think France is next up to qualify for the Euros... didn't mean anything else.


Thank You PhantomSac for Clarification. Merci Beaucoup.
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#557 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 22:19

I miss this part concerning fantunes.....I understand there is gossip....



I miss zero evidence....?

Assuming for DISCUSSION there is evidence...were you persuaded

If so
If not ok....


You must understand at this point thousands and thousands of us know of zero evidence or slander regarding FT
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pls note posting some kind of internet gossip means=something close to zero.....
----------------


discussing evidence means more
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#558 User is offline   BillHiggin 

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Posted 2015-September-20, 23:42

View Postmike777, on 2015-September-20, 22:19, said:

I miss this part concerning fantunes.....I understand there is gossip....



I miss zero evidence....?

Assuming for DISCUSSION there is evidence...were you persuaded

If so
If not ok....


You must understand at this point thousands and thousands of us know of zero evidence or slander regarding FT
--------------

pls note posting some kind of internet gossip means=something close to zero.....
----------------


discussing evidence means more

Plenty of evidence that can be verified. See http://bridgewinners...-fantoni-nunes/
You will find a table summarizing the observations of lots of videos that demonstrate their use of the angle of a played card (opening lead) which corresponds exactly with the holding in the suit led. Each example links to the video (with the time stamp of the lead) and a summary of all the pertinent details. Perhaps the evidence might not convince their mothers(as mothers never believe their children could misbehave), but it is very obvious once you know the code that they are cheating.
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#559 User is offline   Antrax 

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Posted 2015-September-21, 22:29

The IBF committee decided to suspend F&S due to the weight of the evidence until the investigation is over. F&S have requested a chance to speak and appeal this decision and got until the 24th.
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#560 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-September-22, 07:00

View Postgordontd, on 2015-September-19, 10:45, said:


Ahhh, we begin to see a change. They see the writing on the wall for F-S and F-N. So they try another approach, hoping to salvage something, anything. Go public before the posse does. Show contrition instead of defiance. Self-suspend rather than wait for judgment.

Yes, I think Brogeland's sweep is working. The cheaters still out there feel fear now. Heh.



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