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after support double

#1 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 10:33



IMPs

What is your call?

You may or may not agree with opening 1C but you are stuck with it.
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#2 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 10:44

DBL

If this is penalty for you then 2 NT.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#3 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 16:17

View PostMrAce, on 2015-August-06, 10:44, said:

DBL

If this is penalty for you then 2 NT.


Close. But I want a 3rd for a double here.
3N for me... 2N can be passed and we are at the verge of game...
Be the partner you want to play with.
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#4 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 16:58

View PostSteveMoe, on 2015-August-06, 16:17, said:

Close. But I want a 3rd for a double here.
3N for me... 2N can be passed and we are at the verge of game...


Oh you can not play it both ways. I don't even think mandatory 3rd spade is playable. Why would anyone want a 3rd for double? What are you supposed to bid with ?

x AKJ AJxx KJxxx

Disregard if you play the double for business.

I do not mind 2 NT (in fact it is probably the best bid) but why would you bid 3 NT? You have one of the ugliest 18 counts and 2 NT shows that range. Do you always respond 1 with 7+ hcp ? You are not even vulnerable Steve.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#5 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 20:15

View PostMrAce, on 2015-August-06, 16:58, said:

Oh you can not play it both ways. I don't even think mandatory 3rd spade is playable. Why would anyone want a 3rd for double? What are you supposed to bid with ?

x AKJ AJxx KJxxx

Disregard if you play the double for business.

I do not mind 2 NT (in fact it is probably the best bid) but why would you bid 3 NT? You have one of the ugliest 18 counts and 2 NT shows that range. Do you always respond 1 with 7+ hcp ? You are not even vulnerable.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I agree completely and would've said the same.
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#6 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2015-August-06, 23:12

View PostMrAce, on 2015-August-06, 16:58, said:

Oh you can not play it both ways. I don't even think mandatory 3rd spade is playable. Why would anyone want a 3rd for double? What are you supposed to bid with ?

x AKJ AJxx KJxxx

Disregard if you play the double for business.

I do not mind 2 NT (in fact it is probably the best bid) but why would you bid 3 NT? You have one of the ugliest 18 counts and 2 NT shows that range. Do you always respond 1 with 7+ hcp ? You are not even vulnerable Steve.


Hi Timo,
Problem is I want to be in 3NT opposite 7, not just 8-9. Partner is is 5-9 and might not raise to 3 on some 7's. Do you upgrade balanced 17's? Assume with 5-6, 2 was possible unless partner is x=4=y=2 and 1NT on 4=4=3=2. 7-9 is more likely than 5-6. Your point about what 2NT says is well taken. Maybe I'm a bit too aggressive here.

3 cards is simply a balance of power cooperative penalty double spec. I don't play takeout once we have a fit.

With the hand you suggest I'd bid 4 expecting partner to make as their few honors must be working. Besides playing a Moysian is always good practice.
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#7 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 00:29

Double. Showing extra values, takeout orientation and encouraging partner to do something sensible!
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#8 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 00:44

2NT. Natural. Assuming that a 1NT opening would have been 15-17, partner should be expecting us to hold 18-19 balanced with 3-card heat support and a spade stop. Holding AJ, there's no particular need to make partner declarer, so why not describe our hand type?

A question to the doublers: what do you intend to do next if partner bids 3 of a minor?
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#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 01:11

View Postdboxley, on 2015-August-06, 10:33, said:

you may or may not agree with opening 1C but you are stuck with it.

Exactly...stuck with it. If you were referring to 1 vs 1, that is a good idea with balanced 4-4 hands. The evaluation to treat this pile as 18-19 when it actually seems about 16 was not wise, IMO. I know it is blasphemy to downgrade into a lower nt range, but even K&R hates this one.

The problem we have now is real, and it is a byproduct of our first choice.
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#10 User is offline   dboxley 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 09:58

View Postaguahombre, on 2015-August-07, 01:11, said:

Exactly...stuck with it. If you were referring to 1 vs 1, that is a good idea with balanced 4-4 hands. The evaluation to treat this pile as 18-19 when it actually seems about 16 was not wise, IMO. I know it is blasphemy to downgrade into a lower nt range, but even K&R hates this one.

The problem we have now is real, and it is a byproduct of our first choice.


I upgrade a lot but very seldom downgrade because i hate losing game swings. This is not a great 18 but it's still 18 and I refuse to mastermind. The problem here is not how good my hand is but whether pd has Txx of spades or has 5+ hearts or not. Had I known how the bidding would proceed I might have opened 1NT but then I would have been prepared to apologize when it went wrong. Had the opps kept quiet you would not have had a problem with opening 1m instead of 1NT.
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#11 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 10:09

View Postdboxley, on 2015-August-07, 09:58, said:

I upgrade a lot but very seldom downgrade because i hate losing game swings. This is not a great 18 but it's still 18 and I refuse to mastermind. The problem here is not how good my hand is but whether pd has Txx of spades or has 5+ hearts or not. Had I known how the bidding would proceed I might have opened 1NT but then I would have been prepared to apologize when it went wrong. Had the opps kept quiet you would not have had a problem with opening 1m instead of 1NT.

Yes, I understand. It is merely an accidental effect that you would have not had to worry in this case about whether partner had 5 hearts, or anything else because partner would be in charge --- and I respect the majority who never downgrade even though this one is roughly a bad 17.
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#12 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 10:49

I don't like 1. I mean, the usual rationale for 1 is that we can find diamonds, but who in their right mind would raise diamonds here if partner responded 1?

As for the current position, I am not doubling. To me such a double strongly implies that we want partner to sit for it unless he has some reason not to do so, such as a weak hand with 6+ hearts and short spades. I appreciate that I may be in the minority of BBF posters to whom all low-level doubles are primarily takeout, but imo this is quite a different sequence than most....this is a third round action on a sequence where we had no previous ability to penalize.

To me 2N shows this hand perfectly. Were I the same high cards with 3=3=3=4, I would double. BTW, what do we think RHO has, given his initial pass and the fact that, despite now bidding 2, he originally overcalled 1?
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#13 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2015-August-07, 13:08

could pard have bid 1nt with a min balanced hand without a spade stop and only 4 hearts?
if he could then it seems we pretty much never want to play in NT now.
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#14 User is offline   phil_20686 

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Posted 2015-September-28, 23:38

View Postjallerton, on 2015-August-07, 00:44, said:

2NT. Natural. Assuming that a 1NT opening would have been 15-17, partner should be expecting us to hold 18-19 balanced with 3-card heat support and a spade stop. Holding AJ, there's no particular need to make partner declarer, so why not describe our hand type?

A question to the doublers: what do you intend to do next if partner bids 3 of a minor?


This is what I would do if I played double for penalty.


However, I play double as "cards" and if partner bid 3m I would expect him to be 4h and longer minor, so I would just pass, judging him to have some poor 3442 type hand. Unlike some others I do not think partner has promised anything like 7 points. I would expect him to play me for 18-19 with poorish spades if I double. If he judges 3m to the final contract why wouldn't I pass, might just hit xxx xxxx Kjxx xx or something?
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#15 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2015-September-29, 11:17

I've defined this in my partnerships as a "quasi-fit" auction.

If this were a fit auction, double would clearly penalty because we don't need it for anything else.

If this were a no-fit auction (ie we rebid 2m) double would be essentially takeout.

In a quasi-fit auction we've decided x is mostly cooperative. Partner is expected to sit with a balanced hand and pull with extra offense. I should have a 3rd spade but AJ seems ok
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#16 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2015-September-29, 17:00

This is a non fit auction in the sense that both partners are not aware of a heart fit (if there is one). My understanding is 2n = normal balanced 18-19 with at least 1.5 spade stops
and x < 1.5 spade stops but generally fairly balanced to no minor suit rebid. There is a rather huge difference btn AJx and AJ under these conditions and I would opt for x as card showing. If p were to choose a minor at the 3 level I see no reason to move over that.
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