[nullve]

helene_t, on 2015-July-17, 01:43, said:

In mushroom maybe 2s could be a sound overcall and bad hands use 2c.

Yes, why not. Another possibility (i.e. another customisation): 2S = 6+m4Om; 2N = 5+D5+C.

Quote

As for the legal issue it may well depend on the mood of your local tc but the concensus seems to be that wilcosz is bsc and this comes very close.

Again, I'm not a bridge lawyer, but Wilcosz guarantees a second suit while Multi Squared, even if it's weak-only version, does not. Also, when I define 2C as 6 M or 5M4+m, I'm just being explicit about not including 5M(332) or 5M4+OM as well, which I'm sure many would be more reluctant to open 2D (Multi) with than 5M4+m anyway.

[nullve]

Zelandakh, on 2015-July-17, 02:14, said:

if we have a system with all calls from 2♣ up available for preempts, we can do better.

Maybe you're (obviously) right, but I'm ignorant of why.

Quote

how can anyone take seriously a system stating a pass from dealer showing less than opening strength and a hand unsuitable for preemption is something special?

Special or not, it also denies a singleton or void. I think it's an interesting idea which I haven't heard about before, that's why I decided to share it on BBF.

Quote

On the legality I believe you are correct as a Dutch team once tried to get a 2-suited multi past the WBF and it was rejected as BS.

Multi Squared is definitely not a 2-suited multi.

[gwnn]

nullve, on 2015-July-15, 16:03, said:

It seems to me that you are comparing Multi Squared to Multi 2H, not Multi 2D.

Yes I did because it seemed to me that you were comparing it to Multi 2H before me. However, I now see that for you

2♣-2♦
2♥ = H+m or H

2♣-2♦
2♠ = S+m or S

So ignore my previous comment (and I am confused as to what you think your method has to do with Multi 2H).

[nullve]

gwnn, on 2015-July-17, 05:13, said:

it seemed to me that you were comparing it to Multi 2H before me.

I did, because in Multi Squared,

2♣-2♦
2♥ = 6 H or 5S4+m

2♣-2♦
2♠ = 6 S or 5H4+m

[gwnn]

nullve, on 2015-July-17, 05:24, said:

I did, because in Multi Squared,

2♣-2♦
2♥ = 6 H or 5S4+m

2♣-2♦
2♠ = 6 S or 5H4+m

Oh right. Sorry, I can't read. In that case, my original comments apply quite well methinks. The point of 2♥ Multi was to confuse opponents and to deny them an anchor suit to double. In this case you are just confusing yourself. Why not play it as simple 2H=H, 2S=S? Maybe you addressed this somewhere already but this just seems incredibly bad to me.

[nullve]

gwnn, on 2015-July-17, 06:32, said:

The point of 2♥ Multi was to confuse opponents and to deny them an anchor suit to double. In this case you are just confusing yourself. Why not play it as simple 2H=H, 2S=S? Maybe you addressed this somewhere already but this just seems incredibly bad to me.

The point of my 2M rebid is certainly not to confuse the opponents, but rather to enable Responder to figure out whether Opener has 6 M or 5M4+m on partscore deals. That's very hard to do after Multi 2D.

[fromageGB]

nullve, on 2015-July-15, 08:09, said:

Preempt-Preparatory Pass (1st seat NV only)

P = less than opening strength, no singleton or void, unsuitable for preemption

I play a variation on this, at any vulnerability, and the shortage criterion is relaxed. My version : P (any vulnerability) = less than opening strength, unsuitable for preemption.

This seems to work OK.

[gwnn]

When you have like 1-4 in the majors and partner promises 5H or 6S you will assume he has spades and pass. Even ignoring the fact that a 9-card fit is not something that unusual so sometimes you'll play in your opps' 9-card fit instead of yours, you don't always have a 3-card disparity in the majors and will just guess. That is the confusion I'm talking about. The less the disparity in your major suits, the bigger your headaches and the stupider your contracts. In regular 2H Multi this confusion will be counterbalanced by the similar or bigger amount of confusion you are causing your opps so an occasional -250 will be often compared to -620, still giving you a nice swing. Here, not so much as your opps will have let each other know about their points or perhaps also major suit length (if they play X after 2C as short spades say).

[Zelandakh]

fromageGB, on 2015-July-17, 07:20, said:

This seems to work OK.

You are missing out on the opportunity to open hands such as 5432 5432 5432 A or K KQJ 5432 65432 - in a few years time we will laugh about how naïve we were passing these.

[helene_t]

But Csaba, responder doesn't have to bid 2♦. If he can tolerate either major he just responds 2♥ (P/C).

If he has 5-1 or more extreme disparity he can respond 2♦, to play in his own major if opener has 5 and to play in opener's major if opener has 6.

[nullve]

fromageGB, on 2015-July-17, 07:20, said:

I play a variation on this, at any vulnerability, and the shortage criterion is relaxed. My version : P (any vulnerability) = less than opening strength, unsuitable for preemption.

This seems to work OK.

A Pass opening (1st seat NV only) that denies a singleton or void does indeed look ridiculous. But

1) opps are entitled to know about it, which is another thing that makes it different from your kind of Pass opening, which is (still) not alertable.
2) the opening might affect one's choice of preemptive structure in 3rd seat NV, and this is the part I find interesting.

[Vampyr]

nullve, on 2015-July-17, 04:41, said:

Special or not, it also denies a singleton or void. I think it's an interesting idea which I haven't heard about before, that's why I decided to share it on BBF.

Maybe the reason you haven't heard about it is that it is probably illegal in most jurisdictions. You will be opening Yarboroughs with a singleton or void and passing balanced hands that are much stronger.

[helene_t]

Oh you can easily play a system in which a 1st/2nd hand pass promises a balanced hand. Just play all the 2-openings as 0-7 points, 4+ cards in the suit bid. And open at the 1-level with 8+ points. Legal almost everywhere.

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2015-July-17, 07:56, said:

Maybe the reason you haven't heard about it is that it is probably illegal in most jurisdictions. You will be opening Yarboroughs with a singleton or void and passing balanced hands that are much stronger.

All you need is a 3-suited preempt opening to add to the usual 1 and 2-suiters and not to care at all about suit quality or ODR.

[gwnn]

helene_t, on 2015-July-17, 07:39, said:

But Csaba, responder doesn't have to bid 2♦. If he can tolerate either major he just responds 2♥ (P/C).

If he has 5-1 or more extreme disparity he can respond 2♦, to play in his own major if opener has 5 and to play in opener's major if opener has 6.

So with 3-1 or 4-1 we still bid 2H (or 2S with 1-3/1-4) and we are back to square one where we're playing 2M in a 5-1? Or we still bid 2D with 3-1/4-1 and then we're gonna have to guess almost blindly.

[nullve]

gwnn, on 2015-July-17, 07:33, said:

When you have like 1-4 in the majors and partner promises 5H or 6S you will assume he has spades and pass. Even ignoring the fact that a 9-card fit is not something that unusual so sometimes you'll play in your opps' 9-card fit instead of yours, you don't always have a 3-card disparity in the majors and will just guess.

Agree.

Quote

The less the disparity in your major suits, the bigger your headaches and the stupider your contracts. In regular 2H Multi this confusion will be counterbalanced by the similar or bigger amount of confusion you are causing your opps so an occasional -250 will be often compared to -620, still giving you a nice swing. Here, not so much as your opps will have let each other know about their points or perhaps also major suit length (if they play X after 2C as short spades say).

Agree.

[nullve]

Vampyr, on 2015-July-17, 07:56, said:

Maybe the reason you haven't heard about it is that it is probably illegal in most jurisdictions. You will be opening Yarboroughs with a singleton or void and passing balanced hands that are much stronger.

I will be opening yarboroughs with a singleton or void, but only at the 2-level or higher.

[nullve]

gwnn, on 2015-July-17, 08:38, said:

So with 3-1 or 4-1 we still bid 2H (or 2S with 1-3/1-4) and we are back to square one where we're playing 2M in a 5-1? Or we still bid 2D with 3-1/4-1 and then we're gonna have to guess almost blindly.

2D is the correct response. As for the guessing, I think it's an exaggeration to say that it will be 'almost blind', but I see what you mean. Probability calculations might throw some light on this issue.

EDIT: I think our guesses will be a bit luckier than rough probility calculations would indicate, for the simple reason that opps have chosen not to overcall, either directly over 2C, over 2C-2D or over 2C-2D; 2M.

[Vampyr]

nullve, on 2015-July-17, 08:41, said:

I will be opening yarboroughs with a singleton or void, but only at the 2-level or higher.

I see, that is of course OK. Well, it is not OK bridge, but it is legal.

[nullve]

Zelandakh, on 2015-July-17, 07:37, said:

You are missing out on the opportunity to open hands such as 5432 5432 5432 A or K KQJ 5432 65432 - in a few years time we will laugh about how naïve we were passing these.

Another example: weak hands with (41)44 shape. Using the proposed scheme of openings I would have to choose the least lie among Pass (denying a singleton/void), 2D/H (promising 5+ m unless unless 4+H/5+S) and 2S (5+m4+Om). Yuck.