[billw55]

1NT-p-2♣-p
2NT

1NT is 15-17, 2♣ is normal stayman.

What meaning, if any, do you assign to 2NT here? What do you consider standard? What would you expect from a pickup partner?

[Cyberyeti]

Normal stayman means different things to different people, can partner have a 4522 0 count for example ? or is it always constructive ?

I'd suggest it's a very maximum hand 4-4 in the majors, particularly if this was potentially opposite a really poor hand.

[jdonn]

Does not exist. I think in very old fashioned Stayman it showed both majors, but no longer exists as part of the convention. If a pickup on BBO did it I would definitely assume they have no major and that I can not reliably determine their strength.

[diana_eva]

I've had random partners submit that it's standard for 4-4 in majors or a max hand without a major (different people claiming their way is the standard way). I don't know if there's a standard, depends where the opener is from I suppose.

[helene_t]

Minimum with both majors is/was standard curriculum for beginners in the Netherlands but I have never met anyone actually playing it. A substantial number play both majors any strength.

As a beginner in Denmark I learned max without a major.

Gerben suggested min with five hearts which is a lot more sensible.

[billw55]

diana_eva, on 2015-June-30, 11:16, said:

(different people claiming their way is the standard way).

This is a chronic problem.

[Mbodell]

billw55, on 2015-June-30, 10:54, said:

1NT-p-2♣-p
2NT

1NT is 15-17, 2♣ is normal stayman.

What meaning, if any, do you assign to 2NT here? What do you consider standard? What would you expect from a pickup partner?

The meaning I assign to 2nt is a wake up that 2♣ must not have been "normal stayman". I'd pass or bid 3nt (or 6n or whatever) and treat them as having a balanced 15-17 hand with no 4 card major. Sucks when I had my 4450 0 count, but maybe 2nt will not be a disaster, no double yet, right?

[barmar]

If you only bid Stayman with invitational hands or better, you can use 2NT as a response with one of those meanings. However, I think most people these days play that you can bid Stayman with various kinds of minimum hands, such as 4-3=5-1, planning to pass any response (sometimes called "Garbage Stayman"), or 4-4 majors planning on bidding a pass/correct 2♥ over 2♦ (Creeping Stayman).

[PhilKing]

I would just assume partner has no clue.

[diana_eva]

PhilKing, on 2015-June-30, 12:08, said:

I would just assume partner has no clue.

I've always found it interesting to learn such alternative meanings actually. It's clear to me that, if they have learnt those as standard, there's a whole group playing similarly. The first time I've seen a 2NT response to my stayman which turned out to be 4-4 in majors was from an old player (I think he was Italian, don't remember for sure) who was very good at defense and card play, but bid no transfers, stone-age natural style. I did not think he was clueless overall. I thought he was an excellent player with no clue about modern trends in bidding.

[mikeh]

given the OP conditions, my guess is a good 17, no major.

Of course what is 'should mean' is that I mis-counted and have 18-19, and am praying that you read it correctly. With 20-21, assuming one missed an Ace, one jumps to 3N.

I actually had this happen, sort of, many years ago, playing 10-12 1st and 2nd except unfavourable. Partner opened 1N and then over my 2♣ realized that the other side was red as well, and so his 16 hcp hand had not really been shown very accurately. That was a pretty easy read and we fortunately salvaged a push, amidst some laughter from all at the table.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2015-June-30, 12:27, said:

given the OP conditions, my guess is a good 17, no major.

Of course what is 'should mean' is that I mis-counted and have 18-19, and am praying that you read it correctly. With 20-21, assuming one missed an Ace, one jumps to 3N.

I actually had this happen, sort of, many years ago, playing 10-12 1st and 2nd except unfavourable. Partner opened 1N and then over my 2♣ realized that the other side was red as well, and so his 16 hcp hand had not really been shown very accurately. That was a pretty easy read and we fortunately salvaged a push, amidst some laughter from all at the table.

Announcements of course prevent you getting away with this now.

I had worse than that, I looked at my 4234 weak notrump, and after partner transferred to spades, realised that both black suits were clubs, bid 3N for a flat board.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-June-30, 12:52, said:

Announcements of course prevent you getting away with this now.

I had worse than that, I looked at my 4234 weak notrump, and after partner transferred to spades, realised that both black suits were clubs, bid 3N for a flat board.

screens nobody 'got away' with anything if by that phrasing you suggested anything untoward. Nobody said anything, nobody could see any body language or facial expression, altho my screenmate did quiz me about the 2N bid I don't know if my partner's screenmate asked anything.

The same partner, arguably the best player with whom I ever had an established partnership, once opened a 10-12 1N with two 4 card heart suits, and a diamond void. That worked out well for us, as it happened. I always enjoyed the table action of the 10-12 1N, tho not usually because of missorting issues

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2015-June-30, 13:15, said:

screens nobody 'got away' with anything if by that phrasing you suggested anything untoward. Nobody said anything, nobody could see any body language or facial expression, altho my screenmate did quiz me about the 2N bid I don't know if my partner's screenmate asked anything.

Not at all (I meant got away with as in survived), it's just that without screens you perforce get UI as partner announces the notrump range you don't have (unless he's asleep as well), and you're never going to persuade the director you realised before partner announced.

[ggwhiz]

I've seen many random treatments on BBO against me but the only time my partner (fresh out of beginner lessons) did it she had 20-21 balanced and was catching up.

[SteveMoe]

Sorry I can't find the citation but I recall this proposed to show a 16-17 HCP hand with a 6-card minor 3-2-2.

[Trinidad]

Some people I know play it as a maximum with a five card major.

I think that is playable opposite a potential garbage Stayman. The Stayman bidder either has an invitational hand (or better) and the three level can be used to find the right game or he has a hand with both majors and the pair will play in a nine card fit at the three level. Sometimes, a "maximum garbage Stayman" hand will be good enough to bid game.

Rik

[aguahombre]

SteveMoe, on 2015-June-30, 21:17, said:

Sorry I can't find the citation but I recall this proposed to show a 16-17 HCP hand with a 6-card minor 3-2-2.

This was a treatment way back in the 60's and 70's -- abandoned when these pairs discovered drop-dead Stayman, but still could be used if Diamonds was the 6-bagger.

[Zelandakh]

The expected meaning for a pick-up partner depends to some extent on their nationality. In Germany this shows both majors and that is standard even though some pairs play the "unusual" variant where only 2♦ and 2M are possible. Sometimes a pair plays the latter and "luckily" guess the meaning of a non-systemic 2NT response, naturally without giving any indication of the local standards. We should be careful of saying things like "partner has no clue" though. That is looking at it very much from an Anglo-American perspective.

[lycier]

jdonn, on 2015-June-30, 11:14, said:

Does not exist. I think in very old fashioned Stayman it showed both majors, but no longer exists as part of the convention. If a pickup on BBO did it I would definitely assume they have no major and that I can not reliably determine their strength.

It really exist in the life,in China,even some professional players had played this convention in the CC before 2007,its name is Bell Convention :
1nt - 2♣
2nt
2nt= I have a 5-card major suit,ask responder to relay to 3♣ if interested in major game,actually here 3♣ is equal to puppet stayman.
Now 2nt had been eliminated.