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The Misadventures of Rex and Jay--Episode #4321 Standards for a Two Club opener

#1 User is offline   microcap 

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Posted 2015-June-11, 14:04

Playing pairs today, Rex held these two consecutive amazingly similar two suiters!

The question is: What do you open with these hands? Are they 2 openers? Regardless of your answer, I would appreciate comments on your normal standards for 2 as [and I know this will shock you], Rex and I disagree heartily!

Board 3:


Board 4:

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#2 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-June-11, 14:33

Put me down for 1 on both. Two suiters are often hard to describe in a 2 auction. If the hand is strong enough I must do so anyway, but not here.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
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#3 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-June-11, 14:45

1 on both hands. I intend to bid spades and more clubs on the first, and spades and more spades on the second, while showing a BIG hand on both.

Both are 3 loser hands, which, by loser count, qualifies each for a 2 opening. But, as said previously, if one can find an excuse for opening one of a suit on a strong two-suiter, that is the way to go. Here, the chance that either hand will be passed out is next to zero. But the chance that the opponents may enter with a preempt is significant. So we want to get our suits into the auction as soon as possible.


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#4 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-June-11, 15:16

board 3 is a clearcut 1C since it has very close to 0% odds of going AP.

B4 I would also open 1C but I dont blame 2C that much.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2015-June-12, 17:50

View Postmicrocap, on 2015-June-11, 14:04, said:

Playing pairs today, Rex held these two consecutive amazingly similar two suiters!
The question is: What do you open with these hands? Are they 2 openers? Regardless of your answer, I would appreciate comments on your normal standards for 2 as [and I know this will shock you], Rex and I disagree heartily!
Board 3: IMO 1 = 10, 2 = 8.
I open 2 rather than a 1-bid, If game is possible opposite some flat Yarboroughs and there's a realistic chance of a 1-opener being passed out. That's least likely when the opening bid is 1. If you slightly change these hands, so that a 1 opener is the main alternative, then a 2 opener becomes more attractive.

Board 4: IMO 1 = 10, 2 = 9.

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#6 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2015-June-13, 09:16

A 2 open is a hand no worse than a trick short of game on its own, or loads of hcp, and while board 3 qualifies on that basis, I don't want to subsequently describe it as a 2-suiter. Very happy to open 1.
Board 4 is a two-suiter and 2 is automatic if you can show both suits. Rebid spades first then 3 over a 2NT relay.
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#7 User is offline   microcap 

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Posted 2015-June-14, 09:24

Thanks for the answers.

Let's say for argument's sake that both hands were two suiters , so just mentally switch the clubs and diamonds in each hand.

Would that change your mind?
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#8 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2015-June-14, 10:00

View Postmicrocap, on 2015-June-14, 09:24, said:

Thanks for the answers.

Let's say for argument's sake that both hands were two suiters , so just mentally switch the clubs and diamonds in each hand.

Would that change your mind?

It's always awkward to show a strong hand starting with 2 when the longer suit is a minor, so I still would do that. The only difference is that 1 is a little more likely to get passed out than is 1.
Gordon Rainsford
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#9 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-June-14, 15:13

I am more likely to open 2C with C+M than with D+M.

1-wrongsiding D contracts.

2- over 2C-??-3C- a 3D rebid by responder can be a punt. After a 3D rebid by opener 3H got to be natural.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#10 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2015-June-15, 07:11

The first hand I would not fault 2C but prefer 1C. Even if youwere to land on a 4/4 !S fit life things can be dismal.
This second hand is not a 2C bid IHO.
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-June-15, 07:38

View Postbenlessard, on 2015-June-14, 15:13, said:

2- over 2C-??-3C- a 3D rebid by responder can be a punt. After a 3D rebid by opener 3H got to be natural.

A common method is to play this 3 rebid as Staymanic. 2 - 2; 3 - 3; 3 is not an unreasonable description of Hand 3. With diamonds exchanged, you get a similar effect by using the sequence 2 - 2; 3M to show the major bod and longer diamonds. Playing this, 2 - 2; 3 is again not such a bad way of beginning with the adjusted Hand 3.

The problem is that whichever approach is taken I doubt we are going to be able to check everything using natural methods. That is just normal for hands with xx in a side suit and a void and it is made even more difficult by the long suit being clubs.

As for the question in the OP, whether they are 2 openers might have something to do with how old you are. 40 years ago I would have expected both of these hands to start with a strong opening. The modern way is to open 2-suiters such as Hand 4 at the one level. Hand 3 can go either way but is weak enough on pure power that opening 1 is probably going to be preferred by the majority. The problem here is not so much showing both suits, as described above, but rather the opps ramping it up to 4 or 5 of a red suit when the tray comes back to us with neither us having gotten a suit into play. There's something to be said for recommending 2 in a novice game and 1 at an expert table.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#12 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2015-June-15, 17:35

hand 1 really needs p to hold at least 4 spades to make 4s a plausible game so opening 1c seems like the way to go there. Hand 2 essentially needs nothing more than xxx in spades to give us a good game chance so it is entirely too risky to open 1c. Much better and safer to open 2c show spades and settle for clubs if no spade fit.
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#13 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-June-16, 11:02

Quote

A common method is to play this 3♦ rebid as Staymanic. 2♣ - 2♦; 3♣ - 3♦; 3♠ is not an unreasonable description of Hand 3. With diamonds exchanged, you get a similar effect by using the sequence 2♣ - 2♦; 3M to show the major bod and longer diamonds. Playing this, 2♣ - 2♦; 3♠ is again not such a bad way of beginning with the adjusted Hand 3


Yes I agree and do like this scheme but its still not always equivalent.

2C-2D-3S (D+S) here responder cannot show a H suit etc...

2C-2D-3C is just a better start than 2C-2D- and you have long D.

So I think that all others things being equals you are more likely to open 2C with primary clubs than with primary diamonds.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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