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Pesky preempts

#1 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:36



What's your plan here ?

If you double
Spoiler

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#2 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:42

View PostCyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 09:36, said:



What's your plan here ?
IMO 6 = 10, Double = 9. 4 = 8, 4 = 7. 6 might be a poor contract but probably better on a blind lead. Science is unlikely to help.
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#3 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:44

4s

give up on slam

option2=6s
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#4 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:45

Double is out of the question. Not only could it go all pass, but partner might just assume that our diamond holding is a little more robust than a void and insist on playing in diamonds.

4 insures a plus score against all but the most horrendous layouts of the cards. 5 might get partner to bid 6 with a trick. Unfortunately, he might assume that the A is a trick.

There is no way to be sure about this. I think that 5 is the practical bid, as I just can't see bidding 4 with what looks like 11 tricks in hand. It may not work, but it is worth a try.

By the way, if you bid 6 over 3, how are you going to explain to partner that his holding the A and the K is not enough to bid 7?
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:50

Shows why NLM is good even when it does not come.Perhaps we can use 4 for that type of hand then.
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#6 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:52

View PostMrAce, on 2015-May-26, 09:50, said:

Shows why NLM is good even when it does not come.Perhaps we can use 4 for that type of hand then.

You have not convinced me. I like to be able to bid suits at the 4 level naturally over a 3 of a major preempt.
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#7 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:53

View PostArtK78, on 2015-May-26, 09:45, said:

By the way, if you bid 6 over 3, how are you going to explain to partner that his A and K is not enough to bid 7?


You're not, since you're still off the HA :P

ahydra
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#8 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 09:54

View PostArtK78, on 2015-May-26, 09:52, said:

You have not convinced me.


I was not trying to. I gave up on trying to convince people in BBF long time ago. Otoh, I am not even using NLM myself yet.

Also playing 4m natural is targeting to play 4m only. With minor hands you could start 3 NT, or 5m or 4.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
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"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 10:11

View Postahydra, on 2015-May-26, 09:53, said:

You're not, since you're still off the HA :P

ahydra


That's the point, if partner holds A(K) and K and bids 7, he's going to be disappointed, unless LHO decides you were prepared for a heart lead and does something else.
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#10 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 11:08

View PostMrAce, on 2015-May-26, 09:54, said:

I was not trying to. I gave up on trying to convince people in BBF long time ago. Otoh, I am not even using NLM myself yet.

Also playing 4m natural is targeting to play 4m only. With minor hands you could start 3 NT, or 5m or 4.

I disagree. Overcalling 4m naturally allows you to play in 4m if partner chooses to pass, but it is not a stop bid. Partner is free to bid more, as your bid shows a very good hand.
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#11 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 11:13

I don't know what 5S means, but I'm going to try it. A good partner will have at least the CT.
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#12 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 11:15

A and K only cards that matter. Anyone got a bidding method that can find that out starting at 3-level while stopping at 5 without and being able to be bid normal hands too. If they do they should patent it, otherwise take your best guess.
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#13 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 11:27

View PostArtK78, on 2015-May-26, 11:08, said:

I disagree. Overcalling 4m naturally allows you to play in 4m if partner chooses to pass, but it is not a stop bid. Partner is free to bid more, as your bid shows a very good hand.


Fair enough re disagreement but we already discussed the merits of 4m natural overcall in past. Everyone told their opinion. There are a lot of good players here who plays it one way and a lot of other good players who plays it otherwise. There is no need to debate it again here, in order to prevent hijacking. As I said, I still play 4m natural. But due to a lot of hands i have been dealt recently, I am reconsidering my choice on this seriously.

Despite the fact that yours and my styles/opinions/approach about bidding are fundamentally opposite to each other, I like your posts and enjoy debating with you. You are a fine player regardless of what you choose to play or not.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#14 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 11:30

Just as a follow up to some of the earlier discussion, I wonder how partner will react to our 5 or 6 bid if he holds:



xxx

x

AKQJTx

Kxx




By the way, does anyone know why I can't eliminate the extra line space between the lines of cards anymore? I used to be able to do that.
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#15 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 12:41

Some people are worried about PD bidding 7 when lacking Ace. What would 6 be on this auction? What about 5?
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#16 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 13:39

Isn't 5S sth like "I have a monster but lack H control, bid 6 if you have it"?
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#17 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 14:01

View Postapollo1201, on 2015-May-26, 13:39, said:

Isn't 5S sth like "I have a monster but lack H control, bid 6 if you have it"?


Yes, it asks for control. For some it is invitation to slam w/o control so responder can still bid 5 despite the control and this seems very popular among good players in BBF. I don't like it personally. Too much passing the ball imo. For some others like myself, it asks to bid slam when pd has control. But regardless of which fruit you choose, 5 is about control. In the old days it was about trump quality

It does not mean I have some freak hand, with or without control, figure it out and bid slam or pass. So 5 with this hand sounds awfully wrong to me. Why would anyone do this to his pd intentionally escapes me. As he said himself, pd will never know whether his K is a trick or not, or AK diamond worth zero tricks. It is just simply unplayable method imo.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#18 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 14:51

View Postapollo1201, on 2015-May-26, 13:39, said:

Isn't 5S sth like "I have a monster but lack H control, bid 6 if you have it"?

Not on this auction. If this were a slam investigating auction consisting of several bids after the opponent's call, then a jump to 5 would be asking about second round control in the opponent's suit. But this is a direct bid over 3. It can't mean that all I need for slam is control of their suit. It can only show an 11 trick hand needing a 12th trick.

As I said above, unfortunately partner is going to look at the A and believe it is a 12th trick (which it would be if the opps lead a diamond). But I just can't bring myself to bid only 4 on this monster, and I am not going to make a takeout double if there is any chance that it may be passed out.



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#19 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 14:53

5 spades seem totally pointless as partner has no idea which cards are valuable

seems like a pure guess between 4 and 6 and today i'm an optimist :)
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#20 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2015-May-27, 07:34

View PostCyberyeti, on 2015-May-26, 09:36, said:



What's your plan here ?

If you double
Spoiler


I would pray....and then bid 6
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