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Hand patter after 1D precision (2+) 2C show 6, 2D is 4415 (-1 card)

#1 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-May-17, 11:56

openings

2D = 4415 -1 card
2C = 6C
1D = could be 2.

Im wondering if the numbers of clubs will significantly be lower than the number of diamonds after a 1D opening. Im hoping that some hand pattern frequencies already exist.

Im thinking about a suction defense something like

(1D)--??

1NT= clubs or 5S+5m
2C = D or 5S+5H
2D = D+H
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-May-17, 13:51

Precision 1 has diamonds too often to be worth doing much special. maybe your takeouts don't promise or deny clubs.

If doesn't have diamonds is balanced or has clubs.
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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2015-May-18, 08:56

Lets see:
- Balanced hands: all are opened 1
- Semi balanced hands (5m422): all are opened 1
- 4=4=1=4: only with stiff Ace or King <-> 4=4=4=1: all are opened 1
- 44+ minor (no 5M): all are opened 1, except 6-5 (and the obvious ultra rare 7-6)
- 6+: almost all are opened 2 (except with 6322 with 765432 for example) <-> 6+: all are opened 1
- 4-1M with 5-3m: all are opened 1

I hope I haven't forgotten any. As you can see, the difference is quite small. Most hands are opened 1 even with the minors reversed. 4=4=4=1 and 6+ are the main exceptions. So I guess the average amount of s is a little lower than s.
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#4 User is offline   phoenix214 

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Posted 2015-May-18, 13:29

If you want to defend with something destructive vs 1D you sure can do that - but it messes up your constructive auctions as a price.
I like the idea - 1NT - Raptor, X = Majors, pass then X - strong balanced (2NT might be okei as natural as well). Only problem is in comp telling when pass = strong and balanced, so that needs some rules. Also when it goes 1D-p-p, you balance with almost anything, unless you think if pd has strong bal and you dont see any good place to play(4333 7 count for example)
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#5 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2015-May-18, 18:58

This script in http://www.bridgebas...aler/dealer.php



north_limited_opener = hcp(north) >= 11 and hcp(north) <= 15
north_1NT = hcp(north) >= 13 and hcp(north) <= 15 and shape(north, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332 - 5xxx -x5xx)
north_1S = north_limited_opener and spades(north) >= 5 and hearts(north) <= spades(north) and diamonds(north) < 7 and clubs(north) < 7
north_1H = north_limited_opener and hearts(north) >= 5 and hearts(north) > spades(north) and diamonds(north) < 7 and clubs(north) < 7
north_2C = north_limited_opener and clubs(north) >= 6 and clubs(north) > diamonds(north) and not (north_1H or north_1S)
north_2D = north_limited_opener and shape(north, 4414, 4405, 3415, 4315)

north_1D = north_limited_opener and not (north_1H or north_1S or north_1NT or north_2C or north_2D)

condition north_1D

produce 100000
action frequency "diamonds" (diamonds(north), 3, 7, clubs(north), 1, 5)


Yields this


Frequency -------clubs-------------------------------
0 1 2 3 4 5 6+ SumDiamonds 2 0 0 0 2235 4498 6182 0 12915 3 0 0 2248 6408 8052 6125 0 22833 4 0 1853 4493 7979 8419 5689 0 28433 5 271 2866 6266 6221 5566 1861 0 23051 6 289 1801 3280 3043 1349 291 33 10086 7 156 589 859 522 164 29 2 2321 8+ 50 123 129 45 13 1 0 361Sum 766 7232 17275 26453 28061 20178 35 100000

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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2015-May-19, 16:03

View PostTrick13, on 2015-May-18, 18:58, said:

This script in http://www.bridgebas...aler/dealer.php

[snip]

Yields this


Frequency -------clubs-------------------------------
0 1 2 3 4 5 6+ SumDiamonds 2 0 0 0 2235 4498 6182 0 12915 3 0 0 2248 6408 8052 6125 0 22833 4 0 1853 4493 7979 8419 5689 0 28433 5 271 2866 6266 6221 5566 1861 0 23051 6 289 1801 3280 3043 1349 291 33 10086 7 156 589 859 522 164 29 2 2321 8+ 50 123 129 45 13 1 0 361Sum 766 7232 17275 26453 28061 20178 35 100000

I have no idea how to read that.
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#7 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2015-May-19, 17:44

View Postblackshoe, on 2015-May-19, 16:03, said:

I have no idea how to read that.


Whoops. Looked Ok in the preview.

Clubs
0 - 0.8%
1 - 7.2%
2 - 17.4%
3 - 26.5%
4 - 28.0%
5 - 20.1%
6+ - 0.0%

Diamonds
2 - 12.9%
3 - 22.8%
4 - 28.5%
5 - 22.9%
6 - 10.1%
7 - 2.3%
8+ - 0.4%
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Posted 2015-May-20, 12:08

View PostTrick13, on 2015-May-19, 17:44, said:

Whoops. Looked Ok in the preview.

Clubs
0 - 0.8%
1 - 7.2%
2 - 17.4%
3 - 26.5%
4 - 28.0%
5 - 20.1%
6+ - 0.0%

Diamonds
2 - 12.9%
3 - 22.8%
4 - 28.5%
5 - 22.9%
6 - 10.1%
7 - 2.3%
8+ - 0.4%

Ok, so on average: 3.34 s vs 4.03 s
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#9 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2015-May-20, 13:36

View PostFree, on 2015-May-20, 12:08, said:

Ok, so on average: 3.34 s vs 4.03 s

So, does this support keeping basically the same system or changing you system completely over a nebulous Precision 1?
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#10 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-May-20, 20:50

IMO it just confirm that two suiters with D are almost as important as 5C+5M.

Like (1D)--2NT for 5H+ one minor make some sense.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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Posted 2015-May-21, 00:45

Sadly the averages don't tell us much. For each hand that has 2 s there's a hand with 6+s as well, but that makes the average around 4. In case you have s and opener is short, you want to bid them while you have the chance.

I usually keep almost the entire system, except:
1-2 = natural
1-2 = 55+M weak
1-3 = 55+M strong enough for 3-level
This only sacrifices the weak 2 overcall which isn't worth much anyway.
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#12 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 12:06

2 - 17.4%
3 - 26.5%
4 - 28.0%

2 - 12.9%
3 - 22.8%
4 - 28.5%

Agree that the average doesnt tell much but these numbers tell a lot.

36% that opener got 2D or 3D vs seems like a number high enough to consider stuff like 2S= 5S+5m(any) and 2NT for 5H+5m(any) or a suction defense.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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#13 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 20:45

View Postbenlessard, on 2015-May-21, 12:06, said:

2 - 17.4%
3 - 26.5%
4 - 28.0%

2 - 12.9%
3 - 22.8%
4 - 28.5%

Agree that the average doesnt tell much but these numbers tell a lot.

36% that opener got 2D or 3D vs seems like a number high enough to consider stuff like 2S= 5S+5m(any) and 2NT for 5H+5m(any) or a suction defense.


Assuming you are 7 to 15 hcp for 2S or 2NT, using this script ...

================
north_limited_opener = hcp(north) >= 11 and hcp(north) <= 15
north_1NT = hcp(north) >= 13 and hcp(north) <= 15 and shape(north, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332 - 5xxx -x5xx)
north_1S = north_limited_opener and spades(north) >= 5 and hearts(north) <= spades(north) and diamonds(north) < 7 and clubs(north) < 7
north_1H = north_limited_opener and hearts(north) >= 5 and hearts(north) > spades(north) and diamonds(north) < 7 and clubs(north) < 7
north_2C = north_limited_opener and clubs(north) >= 6 and clubs(north) > diamonds(north) and not (north_1H or north_1S)
north_2D = north_limited_opener and shape(north, 4414, 4405, 3415, 4315)

north_1D = north_limited_opener and not (north_1H or north_1S or north_1NT or north_2C or north_2D)

east_2S = hcp(east) >= 7 and hcp(east) <= 15 and spades(east) >= 5 and (clubs(east) >= 5 or diamonds(east) >= 5)
east_2NT = hcp(east) >= 7 and hcp(east) <= 15 and hearts(east) >= 5 and (clubs(east) >= 5 or diamonds(east) >= 5)

condition north_1D

produce 100000
action frequency "east_2NT" (east_2NT, 0, 1),
frequency "east_2S" (east_2S, 0, 1)
===============

Tells you that you will have these hands about 1.3% of the time (each).
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#14 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 21:47

You will have 7-15 hcp 5+M-5+M 1% of the time.
You will have 7-15 hcp and 5+diamonds 9%, with an 8+fit 49% of the time
You will have 6 hearts and 5-10 hcp 2.7% of the time.

I guess this implies 2D should be natural, 2H should be weak H.


When allowed, we bid 2D as a multi (weak either major, nv could be 5-cards), and 2M as 6-cards, 10-13.
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#15 User is offline   SteelWheel 

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Posted 2015-May-22, 01:42

The key term here is in the title of the post: 2+

I run across Precision pairs frequently who promise only one or even zero diamonds for their 1 opening bid (at times, I've even been one-half of some of those pairs, usually at my partner's insistence--personally I don't like it, but I reluctantly go along). I agree that 2+ is not worth treating much differently--but I think there is probably a better way to handle the "Zero diamond" approach, depending on what hand-types the opponents are likely to include in their 1 opening bid.
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#16 User is offline   Trick13 

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Posted 2015-May-22, 16:10

View PostSteelWheel, on 2015-May-22, 01:42, said:

The key term here is in the title of the post: 2+

I run across Precision pairs frequently who promise only one or even zero diamonds for their 1 opening bid (at times, I've even been one-half of some of those pairs, usually at my partner's insistence--personally I don't like it, but I reluctantly go along). I agree that 2+ is not worth treating much differently--but I think there is probably a better way to handle the "Zero diamond" approach, depending on what hand-types the opponents are likely to include in their 1 opening bid.


Our precision 0+ has:

5+ - 20%
5+ - 20%
14-16 (semi-)bal NT - 60%.


I'd recommend 2 natural over that.
The 5-5 major hands are not that frequent and are not too much of a problem to bid naturally when they do come up.
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