[Cyberyeti]

Jurisdiction EBU:

We played some opps who play a double of our 12-14 1N as penalties, but with a minimum strength of 11 points (and indeed they perpetrated this on a pretty nondescript balanced 12).

It is for penalties so not inherently alertable, but is the strength unexpected enough to merit an alert ?

[campboy]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-10, 01:38, said:

Jurisdiction EBU:

We played some opps who play a double of our 12-14 1N as penalties, but with a minimum strength of 11 points (and indeed they perpetrated this on a pretty nondescript balanced 12).

It is for penalties so not inherently alertable, but is the strength unexpected enough to merit an alert ?

Yes.

Blue Book 4H4(a) said:

The following doubles must be alerted:
(a) A double of an opening natural 1NT which may have less than the normally accepted strength for a penalty double (i.e. 15 HCP or compensating distribution)

[gordontd]

campboy, on 2015-May-10, 01:53, said:

Yes.

Isn't it uncanny how often a regulation question can be answered by looking at the regulations?

[Cyberyeti]

Well you might address that to the national level ? EBU director I asked the question to yesterday who clearly didn't know that and told me it wasn't alertable.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-10, 03:43, said:

Well you might address that to the national level ? EBU director I asked the question to yesterday who clearly didn't know that and told me it wasn't alertable.

Just for the uneducated colonists: Is "EBU director" a general term or is it some higher level of distinction among people who direct? Over here, we can ask questions of a lot of "directors" who have passed a test and get some good laughs.

It would be scary to get an answer like that from a tournament-rated director, but certainly possible. You did mention "national level?" in your post; but I don't know what that means over there.

[RMB1]

aguahombre, on 2015-May-10, 04:03, said:

Just for the uneducated colonists: Is "EBU director" a general term or is it some higher level of distinction among people who direct?

In this context, an "EBU director" (sometimes an "EBU panel TD") is a TD who officiates at an EBU organised event, rather than an event organised by counties or clubs. They are also available to give rulings over the telephone for matches played privately: there is a list on the EBU website. Including trainees, there are approximately 40 such TDs.

[gordontd]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-10, 03:43, said:

Well you might address that to the national level ?

It's certainly a point we make repeatedly and consistently to our panel of TDs, but I suspect most of us have fallen down on this from time to time when we feel sure we know what the laws or regulations are. However, if someone wants to question an answer they've been given, it does seem safer to look to the regulation itself than to ask another person and then decide which "expert" opinion to accept.

[Cyberyeti]

gordontd, on 2015-May-10, 06:58, said:

It's certainly a point we make repeatedly and consistently to our panel of TDs, but I suspect most of us have fallen down on this from time to time when we feel sure we know what the laws or regulations are. However, if someone wants to question an answer they've been given, it does seem safer to look to the regulation itself than to ask another person and then decide which "expert" opinion to accept.

The person in question was definite enough that it persuaded me that that there was no explicit regulation and this was a judgment call on whether it tripped the "natural bid but with a potentially unexpected meaning" clause, which was the opinion I was looking for here, your response that there was an explicit rule was unexpected.

[blackshoe]

aguahombre, on 2015-May-10, 04:03, said:

Over here, we can ask questions of a lot of "directors" who have passed a [n open book multiple guess] test and get some good laughs.

FYP.

[aguahombre]

The test is at least set up to see if the person taking it can read. It seems to fail to do that for some directors and for many people who "interpret" the laws.

[steve2005]

The following doubles must be alerted:
(a) A double of an opening natural 1NT which may have less than the normally accepted strength for a penalty double (i.e. 15 HCP or compensating distribution)

Blue book doesn't give strength of 1N.

What if opponents are using 9-11 or 10-12? I doubt many people would require 15 hcp to double.

[Cyberyeti]

steve2005, on 2015-May-18, 07:49, said:

The following doubles must be alerted:
(a) A double of an opening natural 1NT which may have less than the normally accepted strength for a penalty double (i.e. 15 HCP or compensating distribution)

Blue book doesn't give strength of 1N.

What if opponents are using 9-11 or 10-12? I doubt many people would require 15 hcp to double.

Actually a lot of people including us don't adjust much, I double on a few good 14s but that's about it. The question is not what ytou do, but whether you have to alert it.

[aguahombre]

steve2005, on 2015-May-18, 07:49, said:

The following doubles must be alerted:
(a) A double of an opening natural 1NT which may have less than the normally accepted strength for a penalty double (i.e. 15 HCP or compensating distribution)

Blue book doesn't give strength of 1N.

What if opponents are using 9-11 or 10-12? I doubt many people would require 15 hcp to double.

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-18, 08:45, said:

Actually a lot of people including us don't adjust much, I double on a few good 14s but that's about it. The question is not what ytou do, but whether you have to alert it.

I would have been more caustic than Cyber about making a natural Double in direct seat with less than strong NT values. But, since he was nice, I will just expand on his niceness.

The reason we Double a very weak to comic 1NT opening bid is primarily to allow our side to have a notrump auction -- the side benefit is possible penalty. We don't play weak NT ourselves, and don't see any reason why the opponents' style should force us to play weak NT. Also, doubling a weak NT with a weak NT in direct seat is the best way to go for a number.

It is similar IMO to making a takeout double of an opening 1-bid with 13 cards and 13 points.

[barmar]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-May-18, 08:45, said:

Actually a lot of people including us don't adjust much, I double on a few good 14s but that's about it.

And good players don't double just on HCP alone, they also want a source of tricks so they're not constantly end-played. The regulation isn't an instruction book.

Quote

The question is not what ytou do, but whether you have to alert it.

And that question hinges on what is the "normally accepted strength for a penalty double". Lots of people (not you, obviously) play that a penalty double of a NT opening shows "equal strength or better". So when the regulation says "15 HCP", is it implicitly assuming a strong NT?

[gordontd]

barmar, on 2015-May-18, 10:09, said:

And that question hinges on what is the "normally accepted strength for a penalty double". Lots of people (not you, obviously) play that a penalty double of a NT opening shows "equal strength or better". So when the regulation says "15 HCP", is it implicitly assuming a strong NT?

I think the regulation implicitly assumes a weak NT and a double showing more than the maximum for the NT.