[mojila]

I was curious how this Orient Bidding system. How it stands up with ACOL, 2/1 and SAYC
I just stumble at reading Bridgeguys.com . Has anybody experience with this bidding
system.

mojila

[Vampyr]

Didn't we all invent this system in our minds in our teens or early twenties? Anyway, hopeless.

[helene_t]

Vampyr, on 2015-April-17, 06:29, said:

Didn't we all invent this system in our minds in our teens or early twenties? Anyway, hopeless.

Yes but hopefully most of us came up with something better than this.

Opening Bids
Artificial 1C 12 - 13
Artificial 1D 14 - 15
Artificial 1H 16 - 17
Artificial 1S 18 - 19
Artificial 1NT 20+

It is much better to show shape first and then refine the strength later, because:
- The strength of your hand will change later on as you discover a fit (or misfit), hear partner bidding a suit where you a fitting honour (or shortness), hear RHO (or LHO) bidding a suit in which you have a tenace. So trying to express the strength of the hand immediately is futile - unless your hand is balanced, since balanced hands are less likely to reevaluate. This is one of the reasons why sensible bidding systems usually have one or more narrow-range opening for balanced hands, while the openings for unbalanced hands are wide ranging.
- Showing a distributional feature helps partner evaluate his hand also.
- Showing length in a particular suit allows partner to preempt if he has a weak hand with a good fit.
- In competitive auctions partner will often make LOTT based decisions. So he needs to know your trump length, not your point count.

[blackshoe]

helene_t, on 2015-April-17, 06:43, said:

It is much better to show shape first and then refine the strength later, because:

So how about something like:

Opening Bids
Artificial 1C Some 6-6 or better, strength unknown
Artificial 1D Some 6-5, strength unknown
Artificial 1H Some 5-5 or 5-4, strength unknown
Artificial 1S some 4432, strength unknown
Artificial 1NT any 4333, strength unknown

<g, d, & r>

[helene_t]

I actually thought of something like that:

Pass=4+ hearts, 3- spades
1♣=4+spades, 3- hearts
1♦=no 4cM, no 6cm
1♥=6+ clubs
1♠=6+diamonds
1NT=both majors

It probably won't be quite playable but I think it is a lot better than the Orient System.

Edit: the 1♦ definition was wrong.

This post has been edited by helene_t: 2015-April-22, 06:24

[mojila]

Helen

Opening Bids
Artificial 1C 12 - 13
Artificial 1D 14 - 15
Artificial 1H 16 - 17
Artificial 1S 18 - 19
Artificial 1NT 20+

in response Responder immediately knows level of bidding.
Game ,Partial, Slam, GS Whether Interference or not
1♣ - 13 points responder has 13-14 points there is game so Will bid 1N ..Notrump is the game force.

Opener will show next Longer suite 5 carder or more... wen opener shows longer suite responder reevaluates
his/her hand Adds Shortness points to his (HCP+Distribution)+ shortness.
Main thing is very first openers bid Responder can judge Level of bid. e.g. Partia, Game, Slam, GS .


mojila

[Vampyr]

helene_t, on 2015-April-17, 09:09, said:

I actually thought of something like that:

Pass=4+ hearts, 3- spades
1♣=4+spades, 3- hearts
1♦=4cM, no 6cm
1♥=6+ clubs
1♠=6+diamonds
1NT=both majors

It probably won't be quite playable but I think it is a lot better than the Orient System.

At least the Orient System can open every hand -- this scheme leaves out an awful lot of shapes!

[glen]

mojila, on 2015-April-17, 20:39, said:

Opening Bids
Artificial 1C 12 - 13
Artificial 1D 14 - 15
Artificial 1H 16 - 17
Artificial 1S 18 - 19
Artificial 1NT 20+

in response Responder immediately knows level of bidding.
Game ,Partial, Slam, GS Whether Interference or not ...

You hold:
♠: 98765
♥: 2
♦: AQ65
♣: A82

Partner opens 1♣ 12-13 any shape. How is it that responder "immediately knows level of bidding"?

[mojila]

You hold:
♠: 98765
♥: 2
♦: AQ65
♣: A82

Partner opens 1♣ 12-13 any shape. How is it that responder "immediately knows level of bidding"?
Partner Open 12-13 1♣ What you have
8 =2 Aces
2 =Queen
1 for spade fifth card (any card above 4 one point for each card)
2 singleton Heart
_________
13 now partner open show 13 point so you both have 13+13 = 26
( If you do not count singleton right away than your point count is 11
So 13 + 11 (yours)= combined count is 23-24 range in Game range.
so 1♣-P- You can bid 1♦ cheapest suite... when partner shows strain
you can invite. )

You will bid 1N which is GF in this system, Opener now will NAME longest suite 5 carder if no 5 carder than 4 carder ...
than decide the strain.

mojila

[mojila]

In this system positive response and negative response
Notrump is positive response and Cheapest suite is negative response.
Bids and rebids Author suggest Formula type no other cooked bids.

Opening Bids Artificial 1ß Artificial 1® Artificial 1© Artificial 1™ Artificial 1NT
Point Range 12 - 13 14 - 15 16 - 17 18 - 19 20+

Original Concepts
S. Asghar Hassan
(1998)
- Point showing artificial limit suit opening bids, any shape
- 1NT = Any distribution, not necessarily balanced
- Combined Strength Count as mandatory basis for playable contract arrival
- Modified hand evaluation method: single yardstick for both balanced & and
distributional hands

mojila

[glen]

mojila, on 2015-April-17, 22:23, said:

You hold:
♠: 98765
♥: 2
♦: AQ65
♣: A82

Partner opens 1♣ 12-13 any shape. How is it that responder "immediately knows level of bidding"?
Partner Open 12-13 1♣ What you have
8 =2 Aces
2 =Queen
1 for spade fifth card (any card above 4 one point for each card)
2 singleton Heart
_________
13 now partner open show 13 point so you both have 13+13 = 26
( If you do not count singleton right away than your point count is 11
So 13 + 11 (yours)= combined count is 23-24 range in Game range.
so 1♣-P- You can bid 1♦ cheapest suite... when partner shows strain
you can invite. )

You will bid 1N which is GF in this system, Opener now will NAME longest suite 5 carder if no 5 carder than 4 carder ...
than decide the strain.

mojila

Opener has one of two hands:

♠ K
♥ KQ54
♦ K32
♣ J6543

or

♠ AKT43
♥ 543
♦ KJ32
♣ J

See the level that the first hand should reach compared to the second hand. It is impossible for responder to know what that level is without knowing the degree of suit fit.

[mojila]

Hi Glen First and fore most am not expert am mediocre level player What I read in
www.Bridgeguys.com about Orient system I read all sections about 8-9
I though it was worth reading and has some merits. Like wise Long long time ago
Mr. Joshi's Bidding system which was very prevalent in 1950s in Borivalli are of Bombay
Also has worthwhile merits. Though I do not see Joshi mentioned in Bridgeguy
But Dr. Ali Asghar in UK in 1998.
Both hands have 12 points.... IF partner Adds his HCP to 12
if Total
less than 23 than there is partial 2 level He can not bid 1N GF has to bid cheapest suite 1 Diamond.
Combined 23-24 it is 3 level playable
combined 26-27 it is 4 level playable

Now as 12 points opening bid is 1 Club...
if Responder ADDs his HCP and Total is 26(-27 ) e.g. 12+14
he should bid 1 notrump if not in game zone than
he should bid Cheapest suite that is 1 diamond

with 1 notrump opener knows GF shows his 5 card if not 5 card suite
bids 4 card suite.
say Responder bid 1N than with 1st hand will bid 2 Club
and second hand will bid 2 spades

[helene_t]

Vampyr, on 2015-April-17, 20:56, said:

At least the Orient System can open every hand -- this scheme leaves out an awful lot of shapes!

Sorry 1d should be
No 4cM and no 6cm
That way everything is covered
I think 1N is overloaded. Use one of the 2-openings for junk with both majors so 1N shows some values. Say 8+.

Actualy it may be more fun to open all junk hands at the 2-level so that the 1-level opening show values. Lorenzo twos for a starter. Maybe better:
2♣=balanced'ish
2♦=one suit, could be a 5cM. No paradox response, just 2♥ p/c, 2nt strong relay and everything else is to play.
2♥=majors.
2♠=3-4 spades with a longer minor
2NT=4 hearts + 6m
3♣=minors

[helene_t]

Mojila: I would suggest Vienna Club. Maybe modernized with SA 2-openings and a natural 1nt opening, probably 15-17 is easiest. And use normal HCP.

That system also identifies GF or sign off immediately and it gives a lot of shape information when you don't open 1c.

[mojila]

Hi Helen.. Thank you will see I am just intermediate player and play SACY, 2/1 ....
This was by chance I came across and read. Some Concept are scientifically sound.
With First bid To show Total Strength of hand was introduced by Bessel... Culbertson
...(4n,5N) ...and in 1998 Dr. Asghar introduced in UK.
Unfortunately many of his writings were on internet only. Some part Archived at
Bridgeguys site. Appreciate your suggestion and will look Vienna Club system.

Thanks

Mojila