[Liversidge]

My partner played with someone else last night and his 1♥ opening bid (13HCP and five hearts to a King) was doubled by his LHO passed by 3rd seat and then by 4th seat, who converted it to a penalty double with a fistful of hearts. Partner's partner had only 3 points. Partner went 3 off vulnerable, -800 I think. Is there any damage limitation action you could take against this, or is it just bad luck - move on?

[helene_t]

Opener can bid another suit or redouble to ask partner to pick another suit. But with five hearts there is little reason to think anything else will be better. So in this case it was probably bad luck.

[aguahombre]

In most cases like this, you have the opportunity to turn your -800 at the 1-level into minus four digits at the two-level.

However, partner of the opening bidder must have the confidence to know his 2-level response directly over the double will not be taken as showing any values ---merely a long-suit.

XXX X XXX JTXXXX runout over 1H (X) does not get penalized in my world.

[eagles123]

I think he should bid his side four card suit (he must have one as he'd open 1nt otherwise)

When opps look to hit u at the one Level and u have a poor 5 card suit I think escaping is definitely wise!

[steve2005]

eagles123, on 2015-April-16, 12:16, said:

I think he should bid his side four card suit (he must have one as he'd open 1nt otherwise)

When opps look to hit u at the one Level and u have a poor 5 card suit I think escaping is definitely wise!

Some of old foggies still open 1♥ on 5332 especially if were not in our 1N opening range.

[MrAce]

Liversidge, on 2015-April-16, 10:21, said:

My partner played with someone else last night and his 1♥ opening bid (13HCP and five hearts to a King) was doubled by his LHO passed by 3rd seat and then by 4th seat, who converted it to a penalty double with a fistful of hearts. Partner's partner had only 3 points. Partner went 3 off vulnerable, -800 I think. Is there any damage limitation action you could take against this, or is it just bad luck - move on?

The answer to your question depends on the hand 1♥ opener holds, but yes there are ways to trying to find a better spot like Helene said. Tbh, it is mostly futile if opener has balanced or semi balanced hand. When someone passes a T/O double of your suit, in front of you, this is usually an indication that you are probably *****ed no matter what you do. LHO has other suits and waiting to dbl once he already smelled blood by his pd's pass.

Pass in front of suit holder usually means that you are likely to receive a trump lead if LHO has a trump to lead. This is %100 if opener's suit is a minor, but it also applies to 1M. So you may decide what to bid looking at your hand.

AKQJ
Txxxx
xx
Ax

for example, I may run to 1 NT and try to make my 5 tricks. I know for sure my spades won't score 4 tricks in 1♥ (or you can make this another suit if you want). But I would to run to 2♠ which may work well when pd has 3 of them or even 2 of them and void hearts or they misdefend. I know for a fact that I won't be doubled in 2♠. Not only people are way too skeptical to double 2M partscores, they almost never do that when you hold AKQJ. Even if you are playing a 4-2 fit.(or worse)

Change the spade suit to a minor and I would always bid 1 NT. Even if I find 3 card fit in minor and a ♥ ruff, I am 1 level higher than 1 NT. And opponents love doubling 2m contracts because it does not get game bonus even if you make. unless you are playing MP of course which may lead to a bottom for them.

Other than having source of tricks like the hand above, and try to find in which contract I can use them optimally, I would just pass and take the beat with hands where my values are crumbled here and there. Because my main suit (♥) won't score more than 1 or zero in NT when I hold Axxxx Kxxxx Jxxxx Txxxx or whatever, while I may actually score a ruff (or 2 if i get very lucky or they mis defend a lot) in 1♥

[msjennifer]

Liversidge, on 2015-April-16, 10:21, said:

My partner played with someone else last night and his 1♥ opening bid (13HCP and five hearts to a King) was doubled by his LHO passed by 3rd seat and then by 4th seat, who converted it to a penalty double with a fistful of hearts. Partner's partner had only 3 points. Partner went 3 off vulnerable, -800 I think. Is there any damage limitation action you could take against this, or is it just bad luck - move on?

If you are singleton or void in hearts,and,if you have a ,7card or more ,minor bid it as an escape.All other times keep mum.Your opener partner must not bid any other four carder suit.Pass and suffer silently.Your opener partner can't see your hand and bid accordingly.It happens once in may be a thousand deals or perhaps more.Be prepared to get a zero at match points or -13 IMP scoring.

[aguahombre]

msjennifer, on 2015-April-17, 01:08, said:

If you are singleton or void in hearts,and,if you have a ,7card or more ,minor bid it as an escape.All other times keep mum.Your opener partner must not bid any other four carder suit.Pass and suffer silently.Your opener partner can't see your hand and bid accordingly.It happens once in may be a thousand deals or perhaps more.Be prepared to get a zero at match points or -13 IMP scoring.

Why would we assume a zero or -13 IMPS? Is no one else in the room capable of making a takeout double, or of leaving one in?

We are prepared to take a bath only if Responder should have bid another suit over the double, or if we opened a hand others will not open.

[mike777]

Liversidge, on 2015-April-16, 10:21, said:

My partner played with someone else last night and his 1♥ opening bid (13HCP and five hearts to a King) was doubled by his LHO passed by 3rd seat and then by 4th seat, who converted it to a penalty double with a fistful of hearts. Partner's partner had only 3 points. Partner went 3 off vulnerable, -800 I think. Is there any damage limitation action you could take against this, or is it just bad luck - move on?

yes there are options.


One is to pass this type of hand but this is very old fashion to pass, If you pass then pls note pard must know you pass this type of hand.

Again this is old fashion style of bidding, not common on forums. If you are going to pass balanced 13 counts in first seat, pard better know that.

At the very least passing a bal. 13 count with 5h in 2015 will get you yelled at.


Jx
Kxxxx
KQJ
Kxx

[fourdad]

steve2005, on 2015-April-16, 14:16, said:

Some of old foggies still open 1♥ on 5332 especially if were not in our 1N opening range.

I am a fogie who is foggy, but not a foggie!

[wank]

You play in UK, right? Then you can ignore the suggestion for responder bidding 2m on a weak hand. That's an american method, pretty much unheard of here, so your partners would take it as forcing and go more overboard.

[helene_t]

Forcing? Is that really normal in the UK? I would think something like 8-11.

[Liversidge]

If partner responds 2m I would take it as 4+ cards and 9-11 points playing Acol and would pass with three diamonds and pray that it is left in undoubled. We had come to the conclusion that on this hand we just had to take the medicine but wondered if there was a cunning escape mechanism. If not then we might not do any worse than others given best bidding all round.

[helene_t]

Liversidge: 2d needs to show more than four cards especially if it is nonforcing. Opener must be able to pass with most mininums even with a singleton. So expect six cards or a very robust five card suit. Without a decent suit there are plenty of other things responder can do: pass, rdbl, 1nt

[The_Badger]

Actually Liversidge you have posed an interesting question, a question that does not come up often, that is a X'ed contract passed out at the one level. Is there any escape mechanism? Not that I know of, but hey, why not invent one now.

Most of us will know, especially in Britain where we use the weak NT, of the auction: 1NT - X - Pass - Pass - XX where opener redoubles as a way of a) putting stress on the opponents, especially the doubler, and, b) giving partner an opportunity to try to find a fit at the 2 level if he has a really bad hand.

Can we actually do a similar thing after 1♥ - X - Pass - Pass - (XX)? redoubling, giving partner the opportunity to escape at the 2 level, or even in 1♠? It seems feasible in theory, but whether it would work in practice remains to be seen. The only problem I see is that the doubler is more informed about his partner's hand as he already knows that he has strength in opener's suit.

Food for thought...

[zillahandp]

Oh dear eagles y must he have a four card suit other than his opening suit? Eg 15 count or 6331 you have a lot to learn

[dave_beer]

The_Badger, on 2015-April-17, 11:45, said:

Actually Liversidge you have posed an interesting question, a question that does not come up often, that is a X'ed contract passed out at the one level. Is there any escape mechanism? Not that I know of, but hey, why not invent one now.

Both the S.O.S. redouble and a slightly different version due to Kock and Werner have been around since at least the 1950s.

[sfi]

mike777, on 2015-April-17, 01:55, said:

Again this is old fashion style of bidding, not common on forums. If you are going to pass balanced 13 counts in first seat, pard better know that.

At the very least passing a bal. 13 count with 5h in 2015 will get you yelled at.


Jx
Kxxxx
KQJ
Kxx

Passing this hand is not common anywhere, not just forums. And would have gotten you yelled at decades ago.

If this is my hand, I pass 1H-x in the knowledge that this is likely to be a normal-ish result around the room.

[jdgalt]

As the opener, with a two suiter I bid my second suit even if it's only 4 cards. With more than one side suit I XX for rescue and expect partner to pick one.

I will only pass in this situation if my suit is solid enough that I expect to make it, opposite a small singleton, against a trump lead. If the opps are strong enough to set me in two different strains they're probably missing a game of their own.

[eagles123]

zillahandp, on 2015-April-17, 16:51, said:

Oh dear eagles y must he have a four card suit other than his opening suit? Eg 15 count or 6331 you have a lot to learn

lol re-read the original post
ps congrats you have now joined PhilG007 and the_hog in my blocked list