[1eyedjack]

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MP, Instant, ver 32

Odd takeout double.

But surprisingly effective.

[georgi]

It's fixed in v33.

Now GIB won't deviate from 4 cards in OM.

[1eyedjack]

Shame. Swap Hearts and Clubs in North hand and I would not object to X. But I don't insist, if others feel strongly.

[Bbradley62]

georgi, on 2015-April-16, 16:02, said:

It's fixed in v33.

Now GIB won't deviate from 4 cards in OM.

Then, what's the difference between North bidding 3♥ (Stayman, with or without a Lebensohl 2N puppet) to ask for a 4-card major and North doubling to show a 4-card major?

[1eyedjack]

Need not have GF to double?

[georgi]

Bbradley62, on 2015-April-16, 18:47, said:

Then, what's the difference between North bidding 3♥ (Stayman, with or without a Lebensohl 2N puppet) to ask for a 4-card major and North doubling to show a 4-card major?

Now for GIB the scheme is like that:

1NT - 2♥ - ?

-> Double -> TOX, 4♠, 8-9HCP
-> 3♥ -> 10+HCP 4♠, GF, no stopper ♥
-> 2NT - 3♣ - 3♥, 4♠ stopper ♥
-> 2NT - 3♣ - 3NT - 10+HCP, stopper ♥, no any major more promised, just like to play 3NT and show stopper in overcall.
-> 2NT - 3♣ - 3♠ -> 5+ ♠ , INV, 8-9TP

1NT - 2♠ - ?
-> Double - TOX , 4♥ 8-9HCP
-> 3♠ -> 10+HCP 4♥, no stopper ♠
-> 2NT - 3♣ - 3♠ -> 4+♥ , stopper ♠
-> 2NT - 3♣ - 3♥ -> 5+ ♥, to play
-> 2NT - 3♣ - 3NT -> as above, promised 10+HCP and stopper ♠, likes to play 3NT

for both sequences

1N - 2M - 3NT -> 10+HCP, no stopper in overcall

[1eyedjack]

I don't feel comfortable with this. I would prefer that X shows at most doubleton in opponent's suit and at least 3 in each of the other three suits. At this stage I withhold my opinion as to strength. While I have a preference about strength I can live with a variety of possibilities, which is not the case regarding the current shape definitions.

While the X as currently played is described as take-out, it does not currently require the shape appropriate for a takeout X, as the initial hand in this thread demonstrates.

Having X show 4 in the unbid major but otherwise unrestricted leaves you safely placed if opener happens to have 4 cards in the unbid major but poorly placed if he does not.

It might help to know what 2N by opener over partner's X would show. Possibilities are:
1) Natural, contract suggestion (but then converting the X to penalties may be a reasonable gamble, especially at MP).
2) Weak, lebensohl style (a reasonable method where the X is unlimited but may just be competitive or invitational. Probably not reasonable in the current system where X is limited to 8-9 points)
3) Pick a suit (lower ranking than overcall) - offering a choice of places to play.
4) Other - something that I have not thought of.

If you adopt my proposal (ensure that X has full take-out shape, but not promising 4 in other major) then opener can still be expected to bid the other major with 4 of them himself, especially if available at the 2 level. Also at the 3 level if not adopting option 3 from the above list of 2N meanings.

As the system currently stands, I suppose that opener can (at the 2 level) bid a 3 card major of which partner has promised 4. But it is by no means certain to be the right spot. Of course there are no guarantees, whatever system you choose - it is a numbers game. But that is my feeling anyway. I could be on my own.