Is this sequence forcing or not...?
#1
Posted 2015-March-29, 12:04
The bidding goes:
1H : 2D
3D : 3H
Is 3H forcing?
Secondly, for the record, my hand was:
K
87432
KQJ
K843
Rightly or wrongly, I chose to open 1H and then had to find a rebid. With a wretched 7 loser hand, I figured a simple Diamond raise was best. What would others have done?
D.
Ps. Please comment on the forcing/non-forcing question in isolation from the actual deal. It could obviously occur with a multitude of hands.
#2
Posted 2015-March-29, 12:29
wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:
rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:
My YouTube Channel
#3
Posted 2015-March-29, 12:37
- if your 3♦ bid shows extra values, you are already in a game force
- if 2♦ is not a gf and 3♦ does not show extras, partner would have passed 3♦ with a minimum so when he bids on, he is forcing to game.
In most natural 5cM systems, your 3♦ shows extra values so you would need to rebid 2♥, but that is a matter of agreement.
#4
Posted 2015-March-29, 14:24
helene_t, on 2015-March-29, 12:37, said:
- if your 3♦ bid shows extra values, you are already in a game force
- if 2♦ is not a gf and 3♦ does not show extras, partner would have passed 3♦ with a minimum so when he bids on, he is forcing to game.
In most natural 5cM systems, your 3♦ shows extra values so you would need to rebid 2♥, but that is a matter of agreement.
Helene is undoubtedly correct about the standard understandings when playing a natural 5cM (and not 2/1 g.f.) system. But, OMG, what a wonderful parlay of bad ideas. Responder doesn't promise a rebid when he bids 2D; Opener can't raise with KQJ, can't rebid 2NT which also shows extras, and must rebid a non-forcing 2H on 8xxxx.
#5
Posted 2015-March-29, 14:24
(something like this is / was part of the French standard system / FD+), after discovering
the double fit, responders hand did not get any weaker, contrary responders hand improved,
hence 3M in this seq. is forcing.
In the context of fast arrival, which would apply, 3M showes even SI.
With kind regards
Marlowe
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#7
Posted 2015-March-29, 17:10
aguahombre, on 2015-March-29, 14:24, said:
2h is forcing.
#8
Posted 2015-March-30, 00:51
Yes, pass (instead of opening) was a consideration.
I'm guessing from the replies then that, partner's 3H is never simply a final admission of 3 card support with 10/11 points/8 loser holding, which of course opener would pass?
Thanks for the replies.
D.
#9
Posted 2015-March-30, 00:58
Dinarius, on 2015-March-30, 00:51, said:
Yes, pass (instead of opening) was a consideration.
I'm guessing from the replies then that, partner's 3H is never simply a final admission of 3 card support with 10/11 points/8 loser holding, which of course opener would pass?
Thanks for the replies.
D.
I think there are some Acol players who would play it that way, since it's only when partner raises that responder knows opener's first suit to be 5+ cards long.
London UK
#10
Posted 2015-March-30, 00:59
#11
Posted 2015-March-30, 01:00
Dinarius, on 2015-March-30, 00:51, said:
Yes, pass (instead of opening) was a consideration.
I'm guessing from the replies then that, partner's 3H is never simply a final admission of 3 card support with 10/11 points/8 loser holding, which of course opener would pass?
Thanks for the replies.
D.
See my response. I never liked the French approach, never really understood it.
The presence of the double fit will in general improve the inv. hand.
There may be hands, where it is right to stop, but those hands, that did not
get improved by the double fit are rare, even rarer is that you will face an
opener were you exactly make 3.
As they say: stopping on a dime is not worth it.
Bridge is a bidders game, even hopeless game can be made.
And responder has always the option to downgrade a hand to a single raise 6-10.
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#12
Posted 2015-March-30, 01:53
#13
Posted 2015-March-30, 02:06
helene_t, on 2015-March-30, 01:53, said:
In standard French, which is what Uwe was talking about, I think 1♥-2♦;2NT shows a strong notrump, so rebidding it with a minimum wasn't an option anyway.
#14
Posted 2015-March-30, 04:33
What would I have done with the opening hand playing non-2/1-GF? As you did. Anticipating a spade response I am happy to rebid 1NT, bid ♣ over NT/♣, or ♦ over ♦. I don't think 3♦ is forcing.
#15
Posted 2015-March-30, 05:50
Dinarius, on 2015-March-30, 00:51, said:
D.
The simple reason is that if partner has about 11 points and 3 hearts he should just raise 1♥ to 3♥ (which barring a specific agreement is just invitational), in the first place.
#16
Posted 2015-March-30, 11:04
#17
Posted 2015-March-30, 11:14
#18
Posted 2015-March-30, 11:20
Of course as Helene points out you can play whatever you want.
again in the OP there is such a rebid problem perhaps pass is best to start out unless you play some light opening system.
#19
Posted 2015-March-30, 11:20
helene_t, on 2015-March-30, 11:14, said:
It is in Acol with 5-card majors, which is very popular in my part of the country. Not that I am assuming that OP plays that, but I am not assuming anything.
#20
Posted 2015-April-01, 08:44
1♥-2♦
3♦-3♥
may not be forcing in all versions of Acol. But in Acol with 5-card majors, shouldn't it be? Responder could have bid an immediate 3♥ with an invitational hand and even if he wouldn't necesarily do that, the double fit should be enough to make it worth a game force.