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online hand

#1 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 06:02

I recently saw the following on BBO and thought I would ask BBFers what they thought:



E-W were playing Acol so the 1 opening could have only 4 spades. The self-alerts from N-S are precisely as they appeared. N-S claim that their agreeement for the 2 call is Michaels despite the 2452 shape.

After 4 made, the only comment made was from South to their partner saying that the 2 overcall was "a liberty". Two boards later there was an issue with an alert from East and that led to East bringing this board up. East felt that the alert for 2NT was misleading with South holding such good hearts and not having support for both minors. South replied that they felt it was useful to know which minor was held. East then mentioned being a trained TD and that in a live game they would have reserved their rights, then called the TD back at the end of the hand and that N-S would be ruled against.

My question is - if you were the TD and called in on this incident, what would you do?
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#2 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 06:19

NS bid - well - arguably poorly and came up smelling of roses. What exactly have they done wrong other than stretch the requirements of their bids?
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#3 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 06:29

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-March-18, 06:02, said:

I recently saw the following on BBO and thought I would ask BBFers what they thought:



E-W were playing Acol so the 1 opening could have only 4 spades. The self-alerts from N-S are precisely as they appeared. N-S claim that their agreeement for the 2 call is Michaels despite the 2452 shape.

After 4 made, the only comment made was from South to their partner saying that the 2 overcall was "a liberty". Two boards later there was an issue with an alert from East and that led to East bringing this board up. East felt that the alert for 2NT was misleading with South holding such good hearts and not having support for both minors. South replied that they felt it was useful to know which minor was held. East then mentioned being a trained TD and that in a live game they would have reserved their rights, then called the TD back at the end of the hand and that N-S would be ruled against.

My question is - if you were the TD and called in on this incident, what would you do?

Ask if East seriously was of the opinion that South should have selected whether or not to alert the 2 overcall from his own holding of cards (effectively using the alert or non-alert to give North such information).

Then I would just dismiss the case.
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 06:46

pran, this was online so the self-alert procedure was in use.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 06:51

If the agreement is that 2NT asks which minor partner holds (sounds right, given that NS play Michaels), then nothing's wrong here. South can make the bid holding anything he likes - it's purely an asking bid. I'd explain as much to East, and if s/he persisted, I'd tell him/her to stop wasting my time.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 07:15

No infraction and no damage. One could argue that north should take south's bidding as showing both minors an hx of hearts and that he therefore should correct to 5d. So maybe the coach has something to do. The td can easily dismiss the case though.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#7 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 07:43

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-March-18, 06:02, said:

East felt that the alert for 2NT was misleading with South holding such good hearts and not having support for both minors. South replied that they felt it was useful to know which minor was held. East then mentioned being a trained TD and that in a live game they would have reserved their rights, then called the TD back at the end of the hand and that N-S would be ruled against.

What nonsense is this? As long as the explanation of the bid matches the actual agreement, then bidding it even deliberately as deception is entirely ok. (barring a CPU of course)
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
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#8 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 11:06

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-March-18, 06:46, said:

pran, this was online so the self-alert procedure was in use.

This is completely irrelevant so long as the alert and explanations conform to laws and regulations. (My comments on passing information by alerting or not alerting applies of course to the player who selects whether to alert or not)
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2015-March-18, 11:42

I agree there's no case here - this time. I would record it in case a pattern emerges later.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#10 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-March-19, 04:18

View Postpran, on 2015-March-18, 11:06, said:

This is completely irrelevant so long as the alert and explanations conform to laws and regulations. (My comments on passing information by alerting or not alerting applies of course to the player who selects whether to alert or not)

Well you did say that the (lack of) alert by South conveys information to North, which is not the case is playing online or with screens.

If you meant to say that it conveys information to EW then I agree.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2015-March-19, 04:20

Do nothing. East was just pissed off for some reason.

I would love to play N/S for money :)
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2015-March-19, 06:12

The only question of misexplanation would be if N thought 5-4 was normal for a Michaels cuebid which I suspect is not the case for most people. If he said it showed 5-5, he just didn't have it then there is not a hint of needing to do anything else.

It's not clear whether there's any damage if there is a misexplanation anyway.
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#13 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2015-March-19, 08:02

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-March-18, 06:02, said:

I recently saw the following on BBO and thought I would ask BBFers what they thought: E-W were playing Acol so the 1 opening could have only 4 spades. The self-alerts from N-S are precisely as they appeared. N-S claim that their agreeement for the 2 call is Michaels despite the 2452 shape. After 4 made, the only comment made was from South to their partner saying that the 2 overcall was "a liberty". Two boards later there was an issue with an alert from East and that led to East bringing this board up. East felt that the alert for 2NT was misleading with South holding such good hearts and not having support for both minors. South replied that they felt it was useful to know which minor was held. East then mentioned being a trained TD and that in a live game they would have reserved their rights, then called the TD back at the end of the hand and that N-S would be ruled against. My question is - if you were the TD and called in on this incident, what would you do?
There seems no reason to distrust the actual NS explanation but were their agreement more complex then the director might judge their explanation to be inadequate.
For example, after (1) 2 (_P) 2N; (_P) ?? I prefer
  • 3 = MIN. & .
  • 3 = MIN. & .
  • 3 = MAX. & .
  • 3 = MAX. & .
  • Higher bids = Similar with more shape.

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#14 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2015-March-19, 14:55

Online, it's entirely possible to ask further questions to the opponents without even the risk of passing UI to partner.

If East is reasonably experienced, he can certainly ask whether 2N promised a minor, what 3C would have meant, and so on.

If East hasn't seen Michaels very much before - not enough to know that some people play 3C as pass or correct and 2N as asking for the minor and showing more strength than 3C, I have more sympathy.
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