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druri ATB

#41 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2015-March-24, 04:52

View PostTrinidad, on 2015-March-14, 11:00, said:

Score -100 when dummy comes down:
K43
Q53
T62
KJ62

Rik

That's not a 2C bid.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#42 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2015-March-24, 04:56

View Posthelene_t, on 2015-March-14, 06:31, said:

2 is not a natural game try. It is a generic game try, or, you could say that it confirms a "real" opening as opposed to a 3rd seat subminimal opening.

I don't think that's how it's commonly played any more, and the lack of alert in the diagram suggests to me that it's not how this pair play it.
Gordon Rainsford
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#43 User is offline   wanoff 

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Posted 2015-March-24, 05:02

View Postrhm, on 2015-March-24, 04:27, said:

Why?
I would bid game with the East hand if West employs Drury and I could not care less, which hand West held, and my simulations seem to indicate that this is the correct action.
I believe missing game here is not caused by a partnership agreement question, but by bad evaluation, probably caused by over-reliance on point count.
By the way opener explained the 2 bid as "drury fit 10+ with support"
East did not appreciate the strength of his hand after receiving a Drury raise.

Rainer Herrmann


The middle hand does not even look like 50% let alone 75%.
If West thought Drury showed 4 and East thought it showed 3+, then indeed it would be an agreement problem. If not, I agree it's bad evaluation.
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#44 User is offline   rhm 

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Posted 2015-March-24, 05:56

View Postwanoff, on 2015-March-24, 05:02, said:

The middle hand does not even look like 50% let alone 75%.
If West thought Drury showed 4 and East thought it showed 3+, then indeed it would be an agreement problem. If not, I agree it's bad evaluation.

Agreed, but this is a misunderstanding.
Bidding games is not done because it is a sure thing but because it is the percentage action, maximizing your expected score over a distribution of possible hands.
When a simulation shows that out 1000 random deals 750 make game and 250 not, some of those 250 partner hands may have no chance making game whatsoever and some may go down due to bad splits.
The middle one is a dead minimum Drury and it has a lots of wasted values in clubs in addition.
Still game is not without chances, in particular single dummy, if the East hand is not revealed in the bidding.

Rainer Herrmann
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#45 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2015-March-24, 07:08

View Postcherdano, on 2015-March-23, 20:12, said:

But obviously playing it as a limit raise also has advantages - the best drury auction is obviously 1M-2C-4M (no information leakage, no additional chances for opponents to double), and it will happen more often if drury promises a limit raise.

Is that significantly better than 1M-2;2-4M, which is the auction you should have when playing wide-range Drury?
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#46 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2015-March-24, 14:05

View Postgnasher, on 2015-March-24, 07:08, said:

Is that significantly better than 1M-2;2-4M, which is the auction you should have when playing wide-range Drury?

It's not a big difference of course, but it still tells opponents that declarer wasn't strong enough to bid 4M directly.
As another example, surely 1M-2M is a better auction than 1M-2C-2D-2M?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#47 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2015-March-26, 04:34

View Postcherdano, on 2015-March-23, 20:12, said:

I am not sure what Rik and Rainer are arguing about. There are many partnerships who play drury as promising approximately a limit raise - 10+ hcp with typical 3-card support shape. There are many who play it as a good raise - a good 8 hcp with 3-card support would be enough.
My preference is for the latter agreement - you are at the level of 2C with a known major suit fit, certainly we can handle a range of 8-11 hcp (and we can live with the fact that a hand with 4 trumps and 11 hcp has to force to the 3-level). But obviously playing it as a limit raise also has advantages - the best drury auction is obviously 1M-2C-4M (no information leakage, no additional chances for opponents to double), and it will happen more often if drury promises a limit raise.


The reason not to play it as 10+ hcp is if you open virtually all 11+ HCP hands. Then it will rarely come up.
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#48 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2015-March-26, 06:22

View Postcherdano, on 2015-March-24, 14:05, said:

As another example, surely 1M-2M is a better auction than 1M-2C-2D-2M?

How about
1M-2M; pass (~4-7 hcp)

versus
1M-2M; 3x-3M; pass?

Now we're a level higher with the defence knowing something more about opener's hand.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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