Help
In a swiss teams even today I got called to the table. There had been two passes since the last bid, then the person in the pass out seat says "Is it my lead?", His partner responds "Have you passed?". At this point the gentleman in the pass out seat realises he still has a call, and the director gets called.
How do you rule?
(Apologies I didn't note down the auction)
"Is it my lead" EBU
#2
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Posted 2015-March-08, 22:05
He hasn't made a call, so the auction's not over.
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As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
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Posted 2015-March-08, 22:52
Since the question implies he believes the auction is over, and the only way the auction could end would be if he had passed, the opponents might have a valid point that by answering a question with a question partner could have suggested that he not pass (even though he thought he had).
So, if he doesn't pass, we have a ruling to make. If he does pass, we should look at the auction and answer his question for him -- then go back to our knitting.
So, if he doesn't pass, we have a ruling to make. If he does pass, we should look at the auction and answer his question for him -- then go back to our knitting.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#4
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Posted 2015-March-08, 22:57
Would it help if his partner had said "the auction isn't over yet", "not unless you pass" or something similar? It seems to me that partner's question is neutral and entirely reasonable. In fact, had he led (face down), I would find it normal for partner to confirm that he had in fact intended to pass.
The other way he could believe the auction is over is if he thought there had been at least three passes and wasn't really paying attention.
So, the auction continues with his call.
The other way he could believe the auction is over is if he thought there had been at least three passes and wasn't really paying attention.
So, the auction continues with his call.
#5
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Posted 2015-March-08, 23:03
It would help if, during the auction or the play, the partner of the person asking a question is not the one who answers that question.
That includes, "Any questions, Partner?" after the face down opening lead. That question is not part of the protocol. If partner of the opening leader has a question, he just asks the question.
That includes, "Any questions, Partner?" after the face down opening lead. That question is not part of the protocol. If partner of the opening leader has a question, he just asks the question.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#6
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Posted 2015-March-08, 23:29
aguahombre, on 2015-March-08, 23:03, said:
It would help if, during the auction or the play, the partner of the person asking a question is not the one who answers that question.
All well and good, but partner has the right to do something to stop him from facing a card during the auction. How would you suggest his partner does that?
Quote
That includes, "Any questions, Partner?" after the face down opening lead. That question is not part of the protocol. If partner of the opening leader has a question, he just asks the question.
Not really sure how this is relevant to this situation. It's also fairly innocuous.
#7
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Posted 2015-March-09, 04:41
It might help if we could agree on the most neutral way to ask the question that opening leader's partner wanted to ask, but "are you passing?" sounds OK to me.
Something rather similar happened to me a few weeks ago. My partner and I had agreed hearts in the auction, and I then cue-bid 4♠. I was somewhat surprised when partner passed this, but mentally shrugged my shoulders and started to write down the contract while waiting for the opening lead. My partner interrupted with "what are you doing, partner?", and only then did I realise that LHO had actually doubled the cue-bid. The TD was called, and ruled that the auction wasn't over, but that there might be UI considerations to take into account. Of course, the wording chosen by my partner in this case was unfortunate - I assumed partner meant "what call are you making?", but oppo assumed he was saying "what the **** are you doing passing this out?" In any case, it was clear to me that passing out a doubled cue-bid was not an LA!
I think exactly the same ruling applies to the current case. The auction clearly isn't over, but there is potential UI. I think in the current case it is extremely unlikely that partner's question will demonstrably suggest one action over another, but that argument can come later. In the meantime, the auction continues....
Something rather similar happened to me a few weeks ago. My partner and I had agreed hearts in the auction, and I then cue-bid 4♠. I was somewhat surprised when partner passed this, but mentally shrugged my shoulders and started to write down the contract while waiting for the opening lead. My partner interrupted with "what are you doing, partner?", and only then did I realise that LHO had actually doubled the cue-bid. The TD was called, and ruled that the auction wasn't over, but that there might be UI considerations to take into account. Of course, the wording chosen by my partner in this case was unfortunate - I assumed partner meant "what call are you making?", but oppo assumed he was saying "what the **** are you doing passing this out?" In any case, it was clear to me that passing out a doubled cue-bid was not an LA!
I think exactly the same ruling applies to the current case. The auction clearly isn't over, but there is potential UI. I think in the current case it is extremely unlikely that partner's question will demonstrably suggest one action over another, but that argument can come later. In the meantime, the auction continues....
#8
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Posted 2015-March-09, 08:19
EBU white Book
"Some players do not always complete the auction properly by laying a pass card on the table in the pass out seat. Usually this does not cause a problem. When a player acts in such a way as to indicate they have passed and an opening lead is faced they have passed. An action may be deemed by the TD to be a pass in the pass out seat (e.g. general ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards)."
Would writing down the final contract count as a pass in these circumstances.
"Some players do not always complete the auction properly by laying a pass card on the table in the pass out seat. Usually this does not cause a problem. When a player acts in such a way as to indicate they have passed and an opening lead is faced they have passed. An action may be deemed by the TD to be a pass in the pass out seat (e.g. general ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards)."
Would writing down the final contract count as a pass in these circumstances.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
#9
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Posted 2015-March-09, 08:29
weejonnie, on 2015-March-09, 08:19, said:
EBU white Book
"Some players do not always complete the auction properly by laying a pass card on the table in the pass out seat. Usually this does not cause a problem. When a player acts in such a way as to indicate they have passed and an opening lead is faced they have passed. An action may be deemed by the TD to be a pass in the pass out seat (e.g. general ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards)."
Would writing down the final contract count as a pass in these circumstances.
"Some players do not always complete the auction properly by laying a pass card on the table in the pass out seat. Usually this does not cause a problem. When a player acts in such a way as to indicate they have passed and an opening lead is faced they have passed. An action may be deemed by the TD to be a pass in the pass out seat (e.g. general ‘waft’ of the hand, tapping cards already there, picking up the cards)."
Would writing down the final contract count as a pass in these circumstances.
I would think it could do, but that regulation isn't relevant in this case since the opening lead has not yet been faced.
#10
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Posted 2015-March-09, 08:33
Well it may be relevant, if asking the question "is it my lead?" counts as an example of "acting in such a way as to indicate they have passed".
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
#11
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Posted 2015-March-09, 08:42
helene_t, on 2015-March-09, 08:33, said:
Well it may be relevant, if asking the question "is it my lead?" counts as an example of "acting in such a way as to indicate they have passed".
The regulation says they have to "act in such a way" AND "the opening lead is faced". If only one of those takes place, the regulation doesn't apply.
For instance, if he makes a face-down lead, and asks "Any questions?", you could say "Why are you leading when the auction isn't over yet?"
#12
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Posted 2015-March-09, 09:13
aguahombre, on 2015-March-08, 23:03, said:
It would help if, during the auction or the play, the partner of the person asking a question is not the one who answers that question.
Yes, partner could have kept his mouth shut and let the opponents reply.
Quote
That includes, "Any questions, Partner?" after the face down opening lead. That question is not part of the protocol. If partner of the opening leader has a question, he just asks the question.
Yes, of course the partner can wait until it is his turn, but before the opening lead is faced he may wish to ask about the auction while the bidding cards are still visible. This is why a pause here is helpful.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
#13
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Posted 2015-March-09, 09:16
In England, maybe. In North America, by the time the opening lead is made face down, the bidding cards are long gone. 
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#14
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Posted 2015-March-09, 10:06
blackshoe, on 2015-March-09, 09:16, said:
In England, maybe. In North America, by the time the opening lead is made face down, the bidding cards are long gone.
But may be restored on request by presumed declarer or either of his opponents in order to comply with Law 41B?
#15
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Posted 2015-March-09, 10:11
pran, on 2015-March-09, 10:06, said:
But may be restored on request by presumed declarer or either of his opponents in order to comply with Law 41B?
I've never seen that happen, and I've never seen anyone ask for it to happen in conjunction with any 41B request. Once the bidding cards are back in the box, they stay there, unless there's been an "assumption" about the auction that does not conform to the laws, e.g. 1NT-P-3NT-pick up the bidding cards. One might point out that the auction is not yet over. One might then call the director. I've given up doing it in clubs though — they don't learn.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#16
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Posted 2015-March-09, 10:14
pran, on 2015-March-09, 10:06, said:
But may be restored on request by presumed declarer or either of his opponents in order to comply with Law 41B?
I've never seen the cards restored for this, someone just recites the auction.
Sometimes when a complex auction is over, one of the defenders will say "please leave the bidding cards out" so they can see the auction while it's explained (I suppose declarer might also request this in a competitive auction, but I can't recall this ever coming up).
#17
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Posted 2015-March-09, 10:23
barmar, on 2015-March-09, 10:14, said:
I've never seen the cards restored for this, someone just recites the auction.
Sometimes when a complex auction is over, one of the defenders will say "please leave the bidding cards out" so they can see the auction while it's explained (I suppose declarer might also request this in a competitive auction, but I can't recall this ever coming up).
Sometimes when a complex auction is over, one of the defenders will say "please leave the bidding cards out" so they can see the auction while it's explained (I suppose declarer might also request this in a competitive auction, but I can't recall this ever coming up).
I've tried that. It usually doesn't stop people from putting them away, or at least starting to do so.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#18
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Posted 2015-March-09, 16:02
I find "please leave the auction out" uncomfortable. First, of course, because about 50% of the time the request is ignored, and my re-request tends to sound aggressive. But the real reason is "hey, partner, I do have questions - you might be interested in the auction before you lead, too"...not that I would do that, but it sure looks like that when partner *does* now ask for explanations before her lead.
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But with the ACBL style, it's the least of evils.
What would be interesting in the "doubled cue-bid" case is "so, what contract did you write down?" The one time I picked up my cards instead of third pass I wrote down 3♦. Of course, the auction ended 3♦-x-p-p-pickup. I was quite indignant about this one (but didn't fight it...it was a club game, and the worst director in the city, and it wasn't going to make a difference to my further bidding - might have changed the play, but that's my fault for not seeing it, I guess).
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But with the ACBL style, it's the least of evils.
What would be interesting in the "doubled cue-bid" case is "so, what contract did you write down?" The one time I picked up my cards instead of third pass I wrote down 3♦. Of course, the auction ended 3♦-x-p-p-pickup. I was quite indignant about this one (but didn't fight it...it was a club game, and the worst director in the city, and it wasn't going to make a difference to my further bidding - might have changed the play, but that's my fault for not seeing it, I guess).
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#19
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Posted 2015-March-10, 06:42
At the table I ruled that the player still had a call. I didn't think the way the question was asked had lead to any usable UI, and indeed I wasn't called back on that issue. Noone seemed particulaly unhappy with the ruling given. I got the impression that whilst noone at the table knew what the ruling should have been (given the experience of one of the players, I imagine this was unusual for him) noone would have particulaly objected either way (not of course that that should affect the ruling given).
Given that this was the EBU, the bidding cards were still on the table, so this wasn't simplified/complicated by removal of said cards, which it might have been in other juristictions.
Given that this was the EBU, the bidding cards were still on the table, so this wasn't simplified/complicated by removal of said cards, which it might have been in other juristictions.
#20
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Posted 2015-March-10, 08:58
barmar, on 2015-March-09, 08:42, said:
The regulation says they have to "act in such a way" AND "the opening lead is faced". If only one of those takes place, the regulation doesn't apply.
I dislike the wording of this regulation because I think it misleads people to think that it applies only when the opening lead has been faced. If a player "acts in such a way" before the opening lead has been faced, the director is still quite likely to rule that they have passed. To do so would not be against the regulations.