[mike777]

A question came up in a JEC match.

Opp play wk nt and inv minors.

so after 1d-2d
what do rebids show and range?

[akwoo]

Evolution of agreements led us to:

2N - 17+, balanced
3N - 15-16, balanced
new suit, non-jump - second suit, any range
3m - 6 in the minor, usually side singleton, 11-14
new suit, jump - splinter, game forcing
4m - suggests slam in the minor; we didn't want to add it in, but you might consider minorwood

Note that we opened most 5422 or 6322 hands with 12-14hcp and no 5 card major 1N.

Hopefully someone will chime in with K-S standard.

[mike777]

ok so you show range or real suits not stoppers first?

[trevahound]

mike777, on 2015-March-04, 14:11, said:

A question came up in a JEC match.

Opp play wk nt and inv minors.

so after 1d-2d
what do rebids show and range?

My nt is 10-13, so after the equivalent auction, 2nt is 14+ balanced and GF, 2M is natural and unbalanced, as is 3♣ if ♦ is our suit (1rndF), and 3m is unbalanced and minimal. Jumps are shortness and generally somewhat slammish. Kickback would be on, if one had that kind of freak. In any case we're forced through 3m.

Cheers,

Brian Zaugg

[Stephen Tu]

K-S updated is:
2nt = 15-17 F1 (can pass 3m = responder's min 9 count). Usu 3 cd m, or 4cd m and bad for play in m slam.
3nt = 18-19 3cd minor only
3m = distributional min NF
new suit= stopper, 4+ in m, F to 3nt/4m. responder should bid 2nt/3m with minimums.

[FrancesHinden]

There's no need for science.

2NT = 15+ bal game forcing
3D = min unbalanced single-suited
new suit = natural unbalanced, any range (forcing to 3D)

With a game forcing single suiter opener splinters

[akwoo]

We played MPs more than IMPs.

We decided that, with balanced hands, it's best to hide stopper problems and play in NT. We don't know if we're missing a stopper, but they might not know either. Chances are that if one defender or the other has a hand that leads to a potential stopper problem, they would've overcalled. If the stopper problem is split, they might not even lead the suit, especially at MPs where one is wary of leading away from scattered honors.

For an unbalanced hand, there might be situations where one would lie and bid the 3 card suit in a 5431 hand, say with xxxx AQx KQxxx x; this is not just to get stopper information right, but also to get potential slam evaluation right.

[helene_t]

When playing IM in a strong-notrump system, you have to agree whether the double raise wants to be in game opposite 18-19 (i.e. 6-10 or maybe a little narower) or if it is a pure preempt (0-5(6)).

In a weak-nt system it seems to me that the double raise will often torture partner unless it is very weak, say 0-5. Which would give the single raise a very wide range, say (6)7+. But maybe that would be just about playable:
3m is minimum.
2NT is 15+. Responder bids 3m with a minimum.

Other bids show values in the suit bid and will not be a dead minimum. Could be 6331 with 14-16 or thereabout. Responder will now always bid 3m with a minimum but can bid something else with a semipositive.

[WellSpyder]

helene_t, on 2015-March-05, 03:47, said:

In a weak-nt system it seems to me that the double raise will often torture partner unless it is very weak, say 0-5. Which would give the single raise a very wide range, say (6)7+. But maybe that would be just about playable:

Another solution in a weak-NT system is to play the double raise as a bit stronger than this, and to use 2NT instead to show the real junk raise of say, 0-5.

[Cyberyeti]

WellSpyder, on 2015-March-05, 04:07, said:

Another solution in a weak-NT system is to play the double raise as a bit stronger than this, and to use 2NT instead to show the real junk raise of say, 0-5.

We do the reverse of this, it's a trade off wrongsiding NT v getting there fast with the real rubbish.

But the most important thing to sort out before building a rebid structure is what an inverted minor is. Can it contain 4M ? and GF or F1 ?

[barmar]

mike777, on 2015-March-04, 14:11, said:

Opp play wk nt and inv minors.

so after 1d-2d
what do rebids show and range?

If the opponents are playing this system, you should just ask them what their bids mean.

[Zelandakh]

It is a matter of agreement and there are pretty much as many different structures around as in a strong NT system. One fairly simple one is for the first step to be any balanced hand (GF) and all others to be unbalanced. The only non-forcing bid below 3NT is then when Opener shows an unbalanced hand and either player bids 3m.

[akwoo]

WellSpyder, on 2015-March-05, 04:07, said:

Another solution in a weak-NT system is to play the double raise as a bit stronger than this, and to use 2NT instead to show the real junk raise of say, 0-5.

I prefer the double raise to show 0-7, and jump shift in the other minor shows 8-9.

[Vampyr]

WellSpyder, on 2015-March-05, 04:07, said:

Another solution in a weak-NT system is to play the double raise as a bit stronger than this, and to use 2NT instead to show the real junk raise of say, 0-5.

I do this, and also play a rebid (after the single raise) of the next step to show an unbalanced GF. Other rebids as per Frances' post above.

[akwoo]

I've never played this, but I've heard of people playing non-jump suit bids after an inverted minor raise as ASKING for a stopper in that suit. I don't like it myself, but it strikes me as sane, especially in a weak NT context where a balanced hand is automatically good enough for game, and for an unbalanced hand, the information partner frequently needs to know most (whether for considering 3N or 6m) is where your singleton is.

[Zelandakh]

akwoo, on 2015-March-05, 21:06, said:

I've never played this, but I've heard of people playing non-jump suit bids after an inverted minor raise as ASKING for a stopper in that suit. I don't like it myself, but it strikes me as sane, especially in a weak NT context where a balanced hand is automatically good enough for game, and for an unbalanced hand, the information partner frequently needs to know most (whether for considering 3N or 6m) is where your singleton is.

I have played this but came over to the view that stoppers are of secondary importance since often just knowing Opener is balanced is enough to place the contract. I still believe in stopper asks over stopper shows generally though in a range of auctions, primarily to deal with the 2 suits, 2 bids but no ask scenario (eg the last bid was 3♦ and we hold no major suit stopper but partner has both).

[mycroft]

I played that in one system (but in a strong NT, G/F single raise context). Bidding a suit showed stoppers in the other two; bidding 3m showed two suits open; NT showed (at least partial) stoppers across the board.

Didn't have a problem with it (except when one of us forgot); didn't keep it for any other partnership.

[rmnka447]

Stephen Tu, on 2015-March-04, 15:17, said:

K-S updated is:
2nt = 15-17 F1 (can pass 3m = responder's min 9 count). Usu 3 cd m, or 4cd m and bad for play in m slam.
3nt = 18-19 3cd minor only
3m = distributional min NF
new suit= stopper, 4+ in m, F to 3nt/4m. responder should bid 2nt/3m with minimums.

I play KS this way.

The only thing I'd add is that a new suit shows extras as responder can be as low as 10 HCP. 3 of opener's minor also guarantees at least 4+ cards. Normally it's 5+, but could be 4 if opener opened a 4-4-4-1 hand.