BBO Discussion Forums: and who are you? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 6 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

and who are you?

#21 User is offline   onoway 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,220
  • Joined: 2005-August-17

Posted 2015-March-03, 01:31

View Posty66, on 2015-March-01, 08:05, said:

OP, you might enjoy this NPR story about the possible relationship between hypercleanliness and allergies and this NYT story about the relationship between exposure to microbes, allergies and autoimmune disorders.

DR Daphne Miller has a really interesting video out but I can't find the one I wanted. The one I had seen was on a membership site and apparently not available anywhere else, but she talks about Finland noticing that children on the Finnish side of the Finland/Russian border suffered much much more from allergies than the children on the Russian side. The government came to attribute it to the excessive concern about germs. She had a photo of a child kissing a pig and said the the Finnish government is trying to get people to get a more realistic relationship with microbes. But this video covers much of the same ground https://www.youtube....h?v=8EeYTBaG3Oc
0

#22 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,027
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Göttingen, Germany
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2015-March-03, 01:52

I'm not really well read on this, but what strikes me a bit odd is that people are claiming that all GMO is bad. It would make more sense to me that maybe some GMO is bad and some (probably most) GMO is perfectly harmless. This blanket statement sounds like people saying that plant X or Y is a cure for "cancer" IANAD but even I know that there are very many types of cancer and claiming that there would be a magic ingredient to prevent or cure all of them is just very strange for me. If someone proved that (one of the many types of) GM cucumbers are dangerous, overturning the initial tests, we should ban those cucumbers. Maybe there is a systemic problem with the testing and/or corruption within the system, good, we can deal with that too, but it still sounds very strange to claim that somehow ALL GMO's are dangerous. It doesn't sound like a plausible stance to me.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#23 User is offline   onoway 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,220
  • Joined: 2005-August-17

Posted 2015-March-03, 02:09

View Postmikeh, on 2015-March-02, 21:17, said:

Do you have any clue as to what that 'Institute' is? It is run by Jeffrey Smith, a man who has written against GMO foods without the benefit of any actual qualifications to do so. He has no scientific training. His 'degree' is from the Maharishi University of Management! His books are self-published. Of course, he has appearances on that reputable dispenser of valid consumer advice...the Dr. Oz show. If you are at all interested in the credibility of Oz guests, google Green Coffee Bean scam.

So the quack Smith promotes the unaccredited 'AAEM', an organization described as promoting quackery by quackwatch.

You, of course, accept all this stuff as 'serious', legitmate. Meanwhile you reject the opinions of actual experts in the field....this is a very dangerous attitude. It is precisely the same attitude that had thousands convinced that vaccinations caused autism, leading to the resurgence of several childhood diseases that had been virtually eliminated.

Trusting self-promoting quacks with an eye on the buck is becoming increasingly prevalent. It really is a form of luddism, even tho you sincerely abhor the description. The ability to convince is the hallmark of the charlatan.

You should really start demanding that your sources have expertise in the subjects about which they write.....that way you might learn some real facts. Of course, real facts aren't as interesting as conspiracy theories or doomsday scenarios where you are possessed of the truth that will save us all. Am I exaggerating? I don't think so, since you closed your second response to me by suggesting that people who disagree with you must be comfortable with the idea of wiping out all of humanity! It must feel so good to be so right!


I should have sources who know something whereof they speak? Where are your sources? Where is the research that proves ANYTHING I have said is inaccurate? Since you seem to feel that your experts are more in the know than Dr. Shiva who has been recognized around the world by universities and others, Who are they, and why don't you bring them and their work forward? Or is it enough to just spout Monsanto propaganda and pronounce as a sort of truism that anyone who has reservations about GMOs must be unworthy of having anything to say just because of that fact? Do you moonlight, perhaps, as one of the people that Monsanto has hired to go around to forums such as this and spread such drivel? You had best bring all your buddies in to start upvoting, since that's the usual next step with such tactics, and they better earn their wages.

But you obviously don't care about evidence since you offer none, it's supposedly enough that you sneer and belittle anyone not panting with eagerness to turn the world over to people with apparently more ego than ethics " as long as it makes money it must be fine, who cares about the future" attitude. To me that's a pathetic and irresponsible attitude but clearly you are more than comfortable with it.
0

#24 User is offline   onoway 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,220
  • Joined: 2005-August-17

Posted 2015-March-03, 02:31

View Postgwnn, on 2015-March-03, 01:52, said:

I'm not really well read on this, but what strikes me a bit odd is that people are claiming that all GMO is bad. It would make more sense to me that maybe some GMO is bad and some (probably most) GMO is perfectly harmless. This blanket statement sounds like people saying that plant X or Y is a cure for "cancer" IANAD but even I know that there are very many types of cancer and claiming that there would be a magic ingredient to prevent or cure all of them is just very strange for me. If someone proved that (one of the many types of) GM cucumbers are dangerous, overturning the initial tests, we should ban those cucumbers. Maybe there is a systemic problem with the testing and/or corruption within the system, good, we can deal with that too, but it still sounds very strange to claim that somehow ALL GMO's are dangerous. It doesn't sound like a plausible stance to me.

I have never said that, nor do I think responsible people have said that GMO's are in and of themselves necessarilly bad. The problems are that some GMO's ARE bad, if you happen to think that regularly eating even miniscule amounts of poison is a bad thing, that they are totally unregulated and there is no independent oversight and no accountability.

We don't allow a farm wife to bake a batch of cookies in a normal home kitchen and sell them at the farmer's market but we allow contrived plants with dubious benefits to contaminate food crops through cross pollination without a thought. Which has more potential for harm?

The specific problems with GMOs for food, aside from the poisons now part and parcel of what we eat, is the interrelationship with the seed and what the cultivation of the seed does to the environment, and that GMOs have not demonstrated that they actually do lead to any of the results claimed, not healthier food, not better crops, not healthier soil, not even higher yields if you take averages of four years or more, and decidedly not more profitable farms. This is not to say that GMOs could never lead to improvements in all of those things, but when profit is the only concern then that's simply not going to happen.
0

#25 User is offline   antonylee 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2011-January-19
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-03, 03:01

View Postonoway, on 2015-March-03, 02:09, said:

I should have sources who know something whereof they speak? Where are your sources?

http://www.aaas.org/...M_statement.pdf

Excerpt from a statement of the AAAS board of directors: "The World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion [as has EU-funded research]: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques."

Of course you can always claim that Monsanto has paid the AAAS and all the other organizations to support GMOs but I doubt they have that much money.
0

#26 User is online   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,087
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2015-March-03, 03:22

As per Csaba's argument it would also be a bit strange if there was not a single gmo food that was less healthy.than nongmo aalternatives. Is the conclusion that gmo foods are not on average worse than traditional alternatives? Or is it that a gmo food will never be less healthy than the same food would have been if it had been developed using selective breeding? I am not trying to second guess all that evidence since obviously I don't know much about this issue but I just wonder how relevant it is.

I believe gmo food should be labeled and I would personally try to avoid although I wouldn't make it a high priority. There are some specific gmo plants that I condone but in general I don't like the ethics of the biotech industry and I am also a bit worried about monoculture. Yes I know that gmo and monoculture are two different issues but I think they are confounded.
As for health issues it doesn't worry me. A few plants have been engineered to contain higher amounts of vitamins and I welcome that but it would rarely influence my own choice.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
1

#27 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,027
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Göttingen, Germany
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2015-March-03, 03:54

(bold face added by me)

View Postonoway, on 2015-March-03, 02:31, said:

I have never said that, nor do I think responsible people have said that GMO's are in and of themselves necessarilly bad. The problems are that some GMO's ARE bad, if you happen to think that regularly eating even miniscule amounts of poison is a bad thing, that they are totally unregulated and there is no independent oversight and no accountability.

As far as I can see, in this thread, this is the first time you say "some GMO's" - normally you prefer "GMOs" as an umbrella term. How else can I read this sentence in your opening post:

onoway said:

GMOs are the apple being held out to Snow White. Unfortunately, there's unlikely to be anyone wandering around who will save us from the results of eating the apple.

Other than a blanket condemnation of all GMOs? Of course maybe you meant to say "unconditional acceptance of GMO/insufficient scrutiny thereof are the apple being held out to Snow White" but well it's far from clear that that is what you mean. I'm not picking on you per se, it is true of most anti GMO people that they protest against any and all GMOs not some class of them or specific strains. Most people I meet IRL or online flat out say "BAN GMOs!" without any hint of nuance.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#28 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,855
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2015-March-03, 06:01

View Postonoway, on 2015-March-03, 02:09, said:

I should have sources who know something whereof they speak? Where are your sources? Where is the research that proves ANYTHING I have said is inaccurate? Since you seem to feel that your experts are more in the know than Dr. Shiva who has been recognized around the world by universities and others, Who are they, and why don't you bring them and their work forward? Or is it enough to just spout Monsanto propaganda and pronounce as a sort of truism that anyone who has reservations about GMOs must be unworthy of having anything to say just because of that fact? Do you moonlight, perhaps, as one of the people that Monsanto has hired to go around to forums such as this and spread such drivel? You had best bring all your buddies in to start upvoting, since that's the usual next step with such tactics, and they better earn their wages.

But you obviously don't care about evidence since you offer none, it's supposedly enough that you sneer and belittle anyone not panting with eagerness to turn the world over to people with apparently more ego than ethics " as long as it makes money it must be fine, who cares about the future" attitude. To me that's a pathetic and irresponsible attitude but clearly you are more than comfortable with it.

You're the one who began this thread by making a broad claim that all GMO foods are dangerous. It is only now, as you are challenged that you try to save face by changing your story to claim that you didn't mean what you clearly stated. It is generally accepted that the one making the claim ought to have the burden of providing evidence on which the claim is based. Your 'sources' seem to be dubious at best and outright fraudulent at worst.

As it happens, others have done that which you assert I ought to do...provide sources. Meanwhile, you are driven to claim that I must be in the pay of Monsanto. Did you read what I wrote early in this thread about Monsanto and my view of their business practices? Or do you think that was merely me creating my 'cover' story? Lol.

Maybe you should try to understand why you become so unhinged when challenged on this. You have implied that I am comfortable with killing all of humanity. You have stated that I must be a paid agent of Monsanto.

I began my response to your OP by asking a simple question about whether there were any peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that GMOs were unsafe. A short but accurate summary of your many subsequent posts appears to be 'no'. However, your actual response is to cite fringe or fraudulent 'authorities', whose widely-criticized statements seem to have been accepted by you in much the same way that bible-literalists accept their preferred version of the bible.

I have no doubt as to your sincerity, and I am not at all offended by your personal attacks on me. You are so utterly convinced of what you say that, apparently, anyone who challenges you must be evil. Maybe go back and try to comprehend those of us who don't share your view of the world, and take another, honest, look at whose claims you have uncritically accepted and you'll be embarrassed for being so harsh. However, zealots rarely see any reason to try to understand an opposing point of view or even to see nuance in opposing points of view. Since I challenged you, clearly I must be an agent of evil! And you call me 'pathetic and irresponsible'. Lol.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
2

#29 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2015-March-03, 10:01

View Postonoway, on 2015-March-02, 15:01, said:

Complicating access to research further is the focussed attack on anyone who dares to publish anything remotely anti GMO, frequently with innuendo and often with outright lies. Typical of the reaction to a possibly negative impact of anything related to GMOs is this article which painfully tracks an article, an attack on the article and the response by the person who was attacked, Dr. Elaine Ingham, a very highly respected scientist who has worked with soil science for many years. http://www.gmwatch.o...er-klebsiella-p This article was not the one I was trying to find but she has so many links now it was taking too long to find the one I wanted. This one demonstrates both the use of innuendo, slander and outright lies used to discredit anyone who questions the forward march of whatever idea someone proposes which might make some money, and how careless officials sometimes are with their mandate to safeguard.
[SNIP]
IF the GMO foods are safe, why won't the developers allow long term impartial studies? One of the major problems facing researchers is the intransigence of the GMO companies to ALLOW any research.

Anyone who buys GM seeds is required to sign a technology stewardship agreement that says, in part, that they cannot perform research on the seed. Without express permission from the biotech patent-holder, scientists and farmers risk facing lawsuits for conducting any studies.

In July 2009, a group of 26 public sector scientists wrote to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to complain about the restrictions imposed on them by the patent holders of GM seeds. In part, they said critical questions regarding GM foods could not be answered without more research freedom, which has still not been established."
[SNIP]
According to the Institute of Responsible Technology :The American Academy of Environmental Medicine (AAEM) doesn't think (GMO foods are safe).

View Postmikeh, on 2015-March-02, 21:17, said:

Do you have any clue as to what that 'Institute' is? It is run by Jeffrey Smith, a man who has written against GMO foods without the benefit of any actual qualifications to do so. He has no scientific training. His 'degree' is from the Maharishi University of Management! His books are self-published. Of course, he has appearances on that reputable dispenser of valid consumer advice...the Dr. Oz show. If you are at all interested in the credibility of Oz guests, google Green Coffee Bean scam. So the quack Smith promotes the unaccredited 'AAEM', an organization described as promoting quackery by quackwatch.

You, of course, accept all this stuff as 'serious', legitmate. Meanwhile you reject the opinions of actual experts in the field....this is a very dangerous attitude. It is precisely the same attitude that had thousands convinced that vaccinations caused autism, leading to the resurgence of several childhood diseases that had been virtually eliminated.

Trusting self-promoting quacks with an eye on the buck is becoming increasingly prevalent. It really is a form of luddism, even tho you sincerely abhor the description. The ability to convince is the hallmark of the charlatan.

You should really start demanding that your sources have expertise in the subjects about which they write.....that way you might learn some real facts. Of course, real facts aren't as interesting as conspiracy theories or doomsday scenarios where you are possessed of the truth that will save us all. Am I exaggerating? I don't think so, since you closed your second response to me by suggesting that people who disagree with you must be comfortable with the idea of wiping out all of humanity! It must feel so good to be so right!
Mikeh underlines the point that onoway made again and again: the dearth of independent research -- and the efforts of GM companies to suppress and prevent it.

IMO, we've learnt little and done less about regulation -- in spite of many past mini-disasters such as thalidomide. As we become more reckless and complacent, we can but hope that our luck holds and we don't have to face major catastrophe.
0

#30 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2015-March-03, 11:50

View Postonoway, on 2015-March-02, 15:01, said:

But the study’s researchers had little choice but to work with retail GM grains due to one nearly insurmountable research hurdle: grower’s contracts.

Anyone who buys GM seeds is required to sign a technology stewardship agreement that says, in part, that they cannot perform research on the seed. Without express permission from the biotech patent-holder, scientists and farmers risk facing lawsuits for conducting any studies.

I don't see what is so odd or evil about that. This is a very common limitation placed on anybody buying any product. As an example, you agree on something equivalent whenever you download Acrobat Reader. It is there to prevent reverse engineering and similar practices that could harm the legitimate interest of any business based on intellectual property.

After all, once you know how to make them, it is very cheap to make those seeds. The cost is in figuring out how to make them. So, somebody who buys these seeds is specifically disallowed to use them to figure out how to make them.

In addition, those companies who developed GMO (or any new technology) may have some legitimate reasons why they want to know what research is done on their product. That is not with the aim to bar any research. It is with the aim to stay ahead of the competition and to keep an overview of what is going on.

I can easily imagine that a company is willing to supply the material for a study (other than reverse engineering) under the condition that they get a copy of the manuscript when it is sent to the scientific journal. The results may be interesting for their own scientists.
I can imagine that a company wants to co-operate on a scientific paper. But then obviously they will need to know that someone is planning to do the kind of investigation they are interested in.

Perhaps I should add that I am very much in the intellectual property business myself (though nowhere near GMOs) and, in my experience, it is absolutely normal for a company to prevent a third party (e.g. their customers) from using or acquiring the intellectual property that they own. Among technological companies this is an attitude that is well respected. Our customers are not interested in our intellectual property. They just want to use our technology and are willing to pay for it. And they know that if they would work on finding out how we do what we do, we would stop doing it for them and they are on their own.

When you go to markets that are more like consumer's markets (and "farmers in the role of victims" are often treated in the media as if they were consumers, even if they are not) it may not be entirely clear to your customer that the cost/value of the product is not in the raw material, but in the intellectual property that was needed to develop it. That means that the lawyers need to come in to make it 100% clear that you bought the product (seeds to grow the crop) and you didn't buy the intellectual property "embedded" in that product and that using the embedded intellectual property amounts to theft.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#31 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,415
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-03, 12:56

View Postmike777, on 2015-March-01, 12:15, said:

"Genetically modified foods which are of concern are an entirely different thing than hybrids or anything at all that possibly could occur in nature"


This is the basis of what you write about and is just nonsense.

You just do not seem to understand that whatever humans create is fully an act of nature. What ever humans destroy is fully an act of nature. In fact you do not seem to accept that humans are a part of nature, fully nature.


A significant difference is in the rate of modification. Traditional methods of modification are relatively slow. It probably took thousands of years for grasses to mutate into wheat and corn as a result of domestication. And the natural process of coevolution allows the rest of the biosphere and food chain to evolve to fit it.

The relationship between GMO and traditional domestication is similar to the relationship between global warming and the normal climate cycles. High technology allows things to change at rates orders of magnitude faster than "natural" processes do, and the rest of the world can't keep up.

The original post was about our gut bacteria. They've evolved to help us digest our normal diet. If our diet suddenly changes, it will take a while for the gut bacteria to catch up. And while we're waiting, we may see lots of resulting illnesses.

GMO isn't the only culprit, though. High-fructose corn syrup is natural, but we're not designed to be able to consume high amounts of it. Unfortunately, it's all over the place, and it's widely considered one of the main contributors to the increase in obesity and Type 2 Diabetes.

The simple fact is that most of our evolution took place millenia ago, when our lifestyles and diets were radically different. And it worked pretty well until about a century ago, when technological progress made so much of our biology obsolete.

#32 User is offline   onoway 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,220
  • Joined: 2005-August-17

Posted 2015-March-03, 13:12

View Postgwnn, on 2015-March-03, 03:54, said:

(bold face added by me)

As far as I can see, in this thread, this is the first time you say "some GMO's" - normally you prefer "GMOs" as an umbrella term. How else can I read this sentence in your opening post:

Other than a blanket condemnation of all GMOs? Of course maybe you meant to say "unconditional acceptance of GMO/insufficient scrutiny thereof are the apple being held out to Snow White" but well it's far from clear that that is what you mean. I'm not picking on you per se, it is true of most anti GMO people that they protest against any and all GMOs not some class of them or specific strains. Most people I meet IRL or online flat out say "BAN GMOs!" without any hint of nuance.

Fair enough, because GMO's have never been held up to adequate independent scrutiny, many people, including me, feel that since we are now in a "allow them all" phase, we would be better off in a "Stop them all until we know they are safe" phase. It's the companies who have pretty much said all or nothing. Their mantra could indeed be 'resistance is futile".

When someone who has spent most of his career working in biosecurity for the US Government says that in his opinion GMO alfalfa has the potential to wipe out alfalfa as a viable fodder crop,for example, I think people should listen.
This alfalfa is now being grown in Canada, and what is that going to do to food security when the major fodder crop causes cattle to abort their calves? If cattle, then likely also deer, buffalo etc. What happens when the cattle who do survive this are slaughtered and is that genetic material in the meat? What does that do to people? Nobody knows. Perhaps it would have been sensible to find out before we let it loose on the world. An oops! is hardly going to cut it if his fears do indeed get realised over the next ten years and cattle farmers go bankrupt one after another.

Perhaps people ought to have a CHOICE. Then people who want to or don't care about GMOs can have all they want, but why should these companies be in a position to FORCE people to eat them, even if only by not labelling foods containing them? And they ought to be held accountable for pollen drift contaminating crops which people are trying to keep clean of GMOs. Until at least those two things,labelling and accountability, are achieved, I do think they should not be allowed to be sold - which is not quite the same thing as banned, but which is what I think most people mean when they say banned, certainly the people with whom I am familiar.

That doesn't even address safety issues as if people are ABLE to avoid eating them, then the people who do eat them are in effect, volunteering to be test subjects, which is possibly hard on their kids, but it's their choice. Many of us do not wish to volunteer to be test subjects.
0

#33 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-03, 14:23

"The simple fact is that most of our evolution took place millenia ago, when our lifestyles and diets were radically different. And it worked pretty well until about a century ago, when technological progress made so much of our biology obsolete"

Excellent point. Earlier I was going to write about evolution as this is a key subject in this thread.

I think many of us forget that evolution is ongoing. It has not stopped. It has only been roughly 30 lifetimes since the ancient Greeks. A tiny fraction of history.

At some point Homo Sapiens may evolve into another species and mankind dies out. Humans may in someway speed up that process but still it is Nature in action. It is evolution in action.

This destructive part of Nature is something people do not like and demand the govt step in and do something. Onoway points out the many ways we may destroy the Earth. Since we will never have enough studies to remove risk, all the more reason for mankind to move out into the Universe.
0

#34 User is offline   antonylee 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 499
  • Joined: 2011-January-19
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-04, 01:51

View Postonoway, on 2015-March-03, 13:12, said:

Fair enough, because GMO's have never been held up to adequate independent scrutiny, many people, including me, feel that since we are now in a "allow them all" phase, we would be better off in a "Stop them all until we know they are safe" phase. It's the companies who have pretty much said all or nothing. Their mantra could indeed be 'resistance is futile".

Please define "safe". This is an honest question, but I think you must provide an answer that is, at least in theory, attainable. I would not consider absolute-zero-harm as a reasonable answer: for example, everybody can agree that cars cause (and will, in all likelihood, forever cause) lethal accidents, but no-one would think about forbidding them (and you are, effectively, forced to live in a society with cars everywhere).

Quote

When someone who has spent most of his career working in biosecurity for the US Government says that in his opinion GMO alfalfa has the potential to wipe out alfalfa as a viable fodder crop,for example, I think people should listen. [etc.]

Please provide a citation. I will be happy to have a look.

Quote

Perhaps people ought to have a CHOICE. Then people who want to or don't care about GMOs can have all they want, but why should these companies be in a position to FORCE people to eat them, even if only by not labelling foods containing them?

I believe there are non-GMO labels (honestly, I don't know because I don't pay attention to this!). For example, I'd guess (again, IANAL) that food labeled as organic cannot contain GMO. If this is indeed the case, you do have the choice to buy only GMO-free food. (The fact that it's more expensive may or may not be due to the fact that GMOs may actually be cheaper to produce! -- I am not an agricultural economist either :-))

Quote

And they ought to be held accountable for pollen drift contaminating crops which people are trying to keep clean of GMOs.

This may be a valid point, I am not qualified to comment on this (any references on pollen drift?).

Quote

Until at least those two things,labelling and accountability, are achieved, I do think they should not be allowed to be sold - which is not quite the same thing as banned, but which is what I think most people mean when they say banned, certainly the people with whom I am familiar.

Sorry, I truly do not understand you. If they cannot be sold, what can you do with them? Do you think Monsanto should be grateful that you are so magnanimous to allow them to do research on GMOs?

Quote

That doesn't even address safety issues as if people are ABLE to avoid eating them, then the people who do eat them are in effect, volunteering to be test subjects, which is possibly hard on their kids, but it's their choice. Many of us do not wish to volunteer to be test subjects.

Sorry, this argument is ridiculous. I do not think Monsanto is keeping track of who's eating GMOs, rendering any scientific study impossible. I also think that there are much worse things to do to your kids that do not involve GMOs.
2

#35 User is offline   y66 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,496
  • Joined: 2006-February-24

Posted 2015-March-04, 08:42

From A Journalist and a Scientist Break Ground in the G.M.O. Debate by Amanda Little

Quote

There was a trace of mischief in Michael Pollan’s smile as he took the stage of Wheeler Hall at the University of California, Berkeley, last week to introduce a lecture for a course that he co-teaches, with the activist Raj Patel, called Edible Education 101. The auditorium was crammed with seven hundred students, most looking as you might expect young Berkeley food activists to look: wholesome and bright-eyed, visibly eager to help make the global food system “more equitable, healthful and sustainable,” as the course mission states. This group constituted a kind of monoculture, and Pollan was about to introduce an invasive species.

Pamela Ronald, a prominent plant geneticist and a professor at U.C.-Davis, had come, at Pollan’s invitation, to present her perspective on the benefits of genetic engineering—even though Pollan himself has been a vocal skeptic of G.M.O. foods. “If anyone can make the case for this technology, it’s Pam Ronald,” Pollan told the audience.

Posted Image

This was a generous but daunting introduction. It’s not easy for anyone, let alone a plant geneticist who spends fifty hours a week directing a large laboratory, to persuade a crowd of young activists to shift their thinking on one of the most contentious environmental debates of our time. Last year, G.M.O. crops—corn, cotton, and soybeans—were planted on more than a hundred and sixty-seven million acres in America. Seventy per cent of processed foods now have at least one genetically engineered ingredient. But anti-G.M.O. activists have worked to mobilize a backlash: food with the “non-G.M.O.” label is today among the fastest-growing categories of product sales in U.S. markets.

Meanwhile, the major scientific societies, including the National Academy of Sciences and the World Health Organization, have concluded that the G.M.O. crops on the market are safe to eat. And there’s been a shift toward G.M.O.s among editorial boards and science writers—including The New Yorker’s Michael Specter, the Times’s Amy Harmon, and Nathanael Johnson, of the environmental Web site Grist.org. “I feel pretty lonely among my science-writing colleagues in being critical of this technology, at this point,” Pollan told me.

Pollan, who wrote a feature for The New Yorker recently about whether plants can think, remains skeptical of G.M.O.s for several reasons. First, he notes that the vast majority of genetically engineered crops in the U.S. have been designed to enhance the productivity of industrial farming, and are only more firmly establishing practices such as monocropping, which he considers problematic. Monsanto’s “Roundup Ready” crops, which are engineered to be herbicide-tolerant, now account for about three quarters of all the corn and cotton grown in the U.S., and ninety per cent of the soybeans. While many such G.M.O. seeds have promised to reduce the over-all volume of pesticides sprayed on crops, Pollan says that the technology has backfired in some instances: many farms using Roundup Ready seeds, for example, have developed herbicide-resistant weeds, prompting farmers to use more and stronger herbicide sprays. “The major G.M.O. crops are failing, the public is running away from it, and yet the élite opinion is firmly in the camp of: we need this technology to feed the world,” Pollan told me. “It’s really an interesting situation.”

Ronald strongly disagrees with Pollan’s view that G.M.O. crops, broadly, are failing. She cited examples such as Bt cotton that have cut the amount of chemical insecticides applied to crops globally by millions of pounds a year. “The U.S.D.A. just reported a tenfold reduction in the use of insecticides as a result of the engineered Bt trait,” Ronald said. She also cited an example of papayas that were genetically engineered to resist ring-spot virus and helped to save the Hawaiian papaya industry. “It’s a shame to demonize an entire technology because of Roundup Ready,” she told Pollan and Patel when they began a debate after she had given an hourlong PowerPoint presentation.

...

As she stood at the Wheeler Hall lectern, wearing clogs, no makeup, and cropped gray-brown hair, it struck me that Ronald might easily be mistaken for a Northern Californian hippie. She’s a strict vegetarian who lives with her family in a modest solar-powered home, she line-dries her clothing, and she backpacks for weeks at a time in the Sierra Nevadas. She’s also married to Raoul Adamchak, a prominent organic farmer. Together they are the Mary Matalin and James Carville of the G.M.O. debate.

“A lot of people wonder if Raoul and I can be friends—if we can even talk to each other,” she told the crowd as she clicked to an image of Adamchak’s bucolic ten-acre farm on the U.C.-Davis campus, where he directs the organic-farming program. “We can because we have the same goal.” Ronald explained that her advocacy of G.M.O.s is deeply tied to her opposition to the use of harmful chemicals in agriculture. With Adamchak, she wrote the book “Tomorrow’s Table,” which advocates a food system that is organic and genetically engineered.

While the Berkeley debate was spiked at times with shrill notes and tension, the tone was generally courteous. Given the protest tactics that anti-G.M.O. activists have used in the past, I had expected at least one Flavr Savr tomato to be hurled at the stage. But Pollan, Patel, and Ronald made more of an effort to agree with each other than to disagree. “I’ll give you the papaya,” Pollan said gamely when Ronald pressed him to name a circumstance in which he felt G.M.O. crops were acceptable.

...

Why is it that G.M.O.s, more than any other food issue, have inspired so much angst? “There’s something about genes that just terrifies people, when, in fact, this method is just as safe as the plant breeding we’ve been doing for ten thousand years,” Ronald said. Grist.org’s Johnson told me that people see genetic engineering as “a form of tinkering with the very essence of the life force, so it lends itself to all sorts of ominous metaphors.”

One ominous metaphor was by far the most prevalent among the students with whom I spoke after Ronald’s lecture: “G.M.O.s have come to represent the corporate control of our food system,” Mikel Shybut, a twenty-five-year-old Ph.D. student in plant and microbial biology, told me. Shybut stressed that he and his peers had little concern about the human-health impacts of G.M.O.s. He said that he believed in “the promise and power of genetic engineering,” but only insofar as they are “used for people, not for profit.”

Pollan echoed this sentiment, and agreed that the technology itself may not fundamentally pose a greater health threat than other forms of plant breeding. “I haven’t read anything to convince me that there are inherent problems with the technology. I think most of the problems arise from the way we’re choosing to apply it, what we’re using it for, and how we’re framing the problems that it is being used to solve,” he said.

At the end of the event, it wasn’t clear how many people Ronald had managed to win over. It was clear, however, that she and Pollan had set an important precedent: they had convened the two sides of a contentious debate in a respectful dialogue. “It’s the first time I’ve ever seen a discussion on this topic that’s this measured and civil,” said Johnson, whose writing on G.M.O.s has generated scabrous attacks by anti-G.M.O. protestors.

Respect and cooperation from both sides, he added, is “not just novel, but sincerely hopeful.”

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
3

#36 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,415
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-04, 11:05

View Postantonylee, on 2015-March-04, 01:51, said:

Please define "safe". This is an honest question, but I think you must provide an answer that is, at least in theory, attainable. I would not consider absolute-zero-harm as a reasonable answer: for example, everybody can agree that cars cause (and will, in all likelihood, forever cause) lethal accidents, but no-one would think about forbidding them (and you are, effectively, forced to live in a society with cars everywhere).

The most obvious definition would be "the benefits outweigh the potential dangers".

Anti-GMOers see supermarkets full of non-GMO foods. So from their perspective, the benefits of GMO seem miniscule, and they just seem like a way for big agra to increase their profits. There seems like no good reason to take any risks. GMO might be a great way to feed all the starving folks in the Third World, but that shouldn't affect them. Send all the GMO wheat over there (even if there are health effects, it's probably better than starving to death), but don't make them eat it here.

The problem with this attitude is that developing products only for the benefit of poor countries is not very profitable, because those consumers can't pay for it. The companies need to be able to sell it both here and there -- when we buy the products, it subsidizes sending them over there.

#37 User is offline   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,739
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-04, 12:28

"A genetically modified organism (GMO) is any organism whose genetic material has been altered using genetic engineering techniques. GMOs are the source of genetically modified foods and are also widely used in scientific research and to produce goods other than food. The term GMO is very close to the technical legal term, 'living modified organism', defined in the Cartagena Protocol on Biosafety, which regulates international trade in living GMOs (specifically, "any living organism that possesses a novel combination of genetic material obtained through the use of modern biotechnology"
http://en.wikipedia....dified_organism

btw the term "gmo" applies to much more than food. It can apply to humans.

any living organism that possesses a novel combination of genetic material obtained through the use of modern biotechnology


I expect that over time this term will disappear as this becomes common in the world. It is still too new today. Babies out of a test tube were scary at one time.
As Onoway pointed out in my lifetime the scare of Thalidomide babies was used to scare over and over again.
http://www.theguardi...candal-timeline

"James Linder Jones, M.D., M.H.A., FACEP, Senior Correspondent | Mar 11, 2011 Thalidomide, despite its sordid past is undergoing a sort of renaissance and is being manufactured and used worldwide for a variety of illnesses including leprosy - See more at: http://healthworldnet.com/articles/the-best-of-the-best/the-first-seal-baby-the-real-story-of-thalidomide.html#sthash.LEDwL6tq.dpuf"

Again all organisms have been genetically modified, just not using modern biotech. In time this will be very common. Nature marches on, evolution in nature marches on.
0

#38 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,027
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Göttingen, Germany
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2015-March-05, 00:59

On what is healthy/safe, I remembered this question in QI:

https://www.youtube....h?v=qTn3eJG87IQ
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#39 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,415
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-March-05, 10:14

View Postmike777, on 2015-March-04, 12:28, said:

btw the term "gmo" applies to much more than food. It can apply to humans.

While it can, it obviously doesn't when the context is food labeling requirements, for instance.

A phrase I often hear is "GMO food".

#40 User is online   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,087
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2015-March-05, 10:20

View Postbarmar, on 2015-March-05, 10:14, said:

While it can, it obviously doesn't when the context is food labeling requirements, for instance.

As a health concerned canibal I demand GMO labels on human flesh.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
0

  • 6 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users