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GF with diamonds

#1 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 16:38

After 2-2-3 we can use 3 as Stayman; after 2-2-3 we have no such luxury. Has anyone considered playing

2-2-...
...-3 denies a 4-card major,
...-3 4 hearts and longer diamonds,
...-3 4 spades and longer diamonds?
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#2 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 16:49

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-February-13, 16:38, said:

After 2-2-3 we can use 3 as Stayman; after 2-2-3 we have no such luxury. Has anyone considered playing

2-2-...
...-3 denies a 4-card major,
...-3 4 hearts and longer diamonds,
...-3 4 spades and longer diamonds?


Yes, many people have considered playing this rebid structure. I know that because this is exactly what many players do play!
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#3 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 16:52

View Postjallerton, on 2015-February-13, 16:49, said:

Yes, many people have considered playing this rebid structure. I know that because this is exactly what many players do play!

Oh good! How have these players fared with it? Are there any problems besides not being able to bid 3M naturally (i.e. setting trumps)? Does it actually gain when it comes up?
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#4 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 17:35

It should be noted that many that do play this demand an excellent 4 card major suit which means 2c=2d=3d does not deny a 4 card major.
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#5 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 17:37

View Postmike777, on 2015-February-13, 17:35, said:

It should be noted that many that do play this demand an excellent 4 card major suit which means 2c=2d=3d does not deny a 4 card major.

And what's the point of that? Doesn't it defeat the whole purpose?
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#6 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 17:45

THis is what I was taught:


"...agreed to play it as “chunky” 4-card major with 5+ diamonds.


We used to play that is “set trumps” and only cue-bidding ensued, but that hand is even rarer than the treatment given above.


And, Soloway and Passell suggested the treatment that we play, so that was good enough for me!..."

------


If I recall one main reason was it takes up a lot of space so the hand should be more specific but not too rare.
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#7 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 18:21

Putting suit quality restrictions to me is a good way to bury your 4-4 major fits. I don't see the point either.

Then again it's hard to construct legit 2 openers that have really bad 4 card majors, so it's going to be rare that the 4 card major isn't "chunky". Still one could have say xAxxxAKQJxxAK opposite xxxKxxxxxxxxx, and you are in a terrible spot if responder can't bid hearts. And if responder can bid hearts on Kxxx, how do you get to 4 on a 5-3 fit intelligently?

Requiring chunky makes it too rare IMO and doesn't solve your problem hands. I guess chunky lets you select 4M on the 4-3 a bit more often instead of 5m when 3nt is wrong? That's a pretty narrow target compared to reliably getting all 4-4 major fits.
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#8 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2015-February-13, 23:32

I played this for a few years and it never came up. Unfortunately the strong hand with a solid major came up a few times and we lost out.

I dropped it from the cc.
Hi y'all!

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#9 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2015-February-14, 03:31

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-February-13, 16:52, said:

Oh good! How have these players fared with it? Are there any problems besides not being able to bid 3M naturally (i.e. setting trumps)? Does it actually gain when it comes up?


Both hand types (the 4M, (5)6 FG hand and the solid major hand wanting to know only about cue bids) are quite rare, so it's hard to say which is better, without a simulation. I'd probably use the BBO partnership bidding tool if I wanted to form a more definitive judgement. As I'm sure you've worked out, the gains for using the jumps to show 4M come from being able to play in 4/4 & 5/3 major suit fits whilst avoiding 4-3 fits. The losses, in theory, are that these calls take up a lot of room. It's harder to judge when to play in Responder's suit, especially when Opener rebids 3.
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#10 User is offline   PhantomSac 

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Posted 2015-February-15, 03:56

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-February-13, 16:38, said:

After 2-2-3 we can use 3 as Stayman; after 2-2-3 we have no such luxury. Has anyone considered playing

2-2-...
...-3 denies a 4-card major,
...-3 4 hearts and longer diamonds,
...-3 4 spades and longer diamonds?


This is extremely common, I prefer to play this way when playing standard.
The artist formerly known as jlall
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 07:26

I am actually fairly shocked you do not have this in your database Michael. It must have come up more than 20 times since you have been on BBF! I know I have personally posted about it several times in that period too.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#12 User is offline   PhilKing 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 08:02

It's so standard even the top French players do it.
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 08:36

Even in Lancashire, actually. It hasn't reached Yorkshire yet, though.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#14 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 08:49

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-February-18, 07:26, said:

I am actually fairly shocked you do not have this in your database Michael. It must have come up more than 20 times since you have been on BBF! I know I have personally posted about it several times in that period too.

I am still fairly shocked that after over 4 years of maintaining the systems index I have received exactly zero suggestions for threads to be included (except for the couple I got immediately after soliciting them in the announcement thread).
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 09:33

View Postmgoetze, on 2015-February-18, 08:49, said:

I am still fairly shocked that after over 4 years of maintaining the systems index I have received exactly zero suggestions for threads to be included (except for the couple I got immediately after soliciting them in the announcement thread).

Clearly every bidding thread in which Ken or I post is crying out to be added, no? :lol:

Seriously though, his minor suit opening structure for strong club systems and Han's method after 1 - (2) would probably be at the top of the list. Quite a lot of PK's ideas are certainly worth adding too. The parity cue bidding thread from way back (awm was the main contributor I think) would also be a worthy contender.
(-: Zel :-)

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#16 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 09:45

View PostZelandakh, on 2015-February-18, 09:33, said:

Clearly every bidding thread in which Ken or I post is crying out to be added, no? :lol:

Seriously though, his minor suit opening structure for strong club systems and Han's method after 1 - (2) would probably be at the top of the list. Quite a lot of PK's ideas are certainly worth adding too. The parity cue bidding thread from way back (awm was the main contributor I think) would also be a worthy contender.

Yes, yes, that's great, but do you suppose you could send me links? I'm happy to add them but tracking them down is a lot of work.
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#17 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2015-February-18, 10:13

View PostPhilKing, on 2015-February-18, 08:02, said:

It's so standard even the top French players do it.

Playing SEF?
Robin

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