[Kungsgeten]

Lately we've been discussing "medium club" vs strong club and as a result purity of opening bids has surfaced. What do we really show when we make an opening bid? Ofcourse follow-ups and contested bidding is important too. The main reason for pure opening bids (showing either a suit or a balanced hand) is that it makes contested bidding easier, in my opinion. This is also true for limited openings. To me Moscito's opening bid structure is very pure since every bid shows a suit, except the strong club and 1NT which is balanced.

1♣ = 15+ hcp
1♦ = 4+ hearts but 5 hearts if balanced, may have longer minor. (9)10-14 hcp
1♥ = 4+ spades but 5 spades if balanced, may have longer minor. (9)10-14 hcp
1♠ = 6+ diamonds or both minors (so always 4+ diamonds). Unbalanced. (9)10-14 hcp
1NT = 11-14, no 5 card major
2♣ = 6+ clubs, (9)10-14 hcp

Now to me 15+ for a strong club seems a little bit on the weak side. I've played Moscito and contested 1♣ auctions could get messy.

Do you think it would improve the Moscito system if both 1♠ and 1NT showed balanced hands, with 2♦ being natural? In this way you could make 1♣ over all stronger, perhaps even to a Precision standard:

1♣ = 16+ unbal or 17+ bal
1♦/♥ = As above but (10)11-15 and 11-13 if balanced
1♠ = 11-13 NT, no 5 card major
1NT = 14-16 NT, may have 5 card major
2m = 6+ minor or 5-4 minors, 11-15
2NT = 5-5 minors, 11-15

This may diminish some key aspects of Moscito: The relays over 2m and 2NT are probably less efficient than if using the diamond based 1♠ opening and you do not open as quite as light. 2♦ is however more aggressive than 1♠ and you could perhaps play 1♠ as 10-13 NT and 1NT as 13+-16 NT. Another aspect is that 2♦ and 2NT is unavailable for preemptive purposes (although you could include 5-5 minors in the 2♣ opening bid).

[benlessard]

Ive never understood limited transfers openings, if my 1D opening is forcing and show 4H and ive got 20 pts with 6H than its clear to me that this hand fit better in 1D than under a strong club. Are most opening in Moscito forcing ?

[hrothgar]

MOSCITO's transfer opening structure is a natural out growth of two design choices

1. The system is designed to identify whether opener holds a biddable 4 card major as quickly as possible. There are a lot of hands that can be described as "I hold 4+ Hearts" or "I hold 4+ spades". MOSCITO bundles these hand types into a single bid. Consequently, we need as much bidding space as possible to describe them which, in turn, suggests opening these hands at a low level.

2. It's nice if our descriptive shape revealing relay sequences describe dummy rather than declarer. Transfer openings are a nice way to achieve this end.

For what its worth, the opening bids are non forcing. Most responses to the transfer opening are constructive in nature and require at least a decent six count. (We find it more valuable to have responses require actual values so we can penalty double if the opponent's interfere in our no-fit auctions.

[hrothgar]

I hate opening 1S with a balanced 11-13 count.

You're going to make it way to easy for the opponents to double you for penalties.

[mgoetze]

hrothgar, on 2015-February-12, 07:46, said:

I hate opening 1N with a balanced 11-13 count.

You're going to make it way to easy for the opponents to double you for penalties.

Uhm, wrong thread?

[hrothgar]

mgoetze, on 2015-February-12, 08:00, said:

Uhm, wrong thread?

Sorry, meant to say 1!S

[mgoetze]

Well, I assume you would routinely pass 1♠ with 4+ spades. Given that, what defense are you going to play that allows you to extract a lot more penalties than you could against 1NT = 11-13?

[Kungsgeten]

In the forcing pass system I played we used 1S as 8-11 NT and 1NT as 12-14. I think that it is easier to have good escape sequences after 1S showing a weak NT than after a natural weak 1NT. After they doubled 1S we used to play:

Pass = Asks opener to pass with 3+ spades
Rdbl = Strong, asks opener to pass with 3+ spades
1NT = To play. If they double may bid 2C as clubs + red suit or 2D as both red suits
2X = To play
2NT = GF with 0-2 spades
3X = Preemptive

Our responses to 1S was our normal NT system where 1NT was to play and pass just showed hand willing to play 1S undoubled.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-February-12, 16:28, said:

Our responses to 1S was our normal NT system where 1NT was to play and pass just showed hand willing to play 1S undoubled.

Just wondering if 1S-1N could be used as a forcing bid. For example it could...

1) be a transfer
2) be a 3-suit takeout of spades
3) promise invitational+ values
4) combine weak and strong meanings

Of course passing 1S would then be a gamble, but it might be a good gamble if you had the ability also to sign off in any other suit or
ask partner to choose a suit other than spades.

[Kungsgeten]

Many times when partner opens 1S you want to play 1NT, so I do not think it is wise to remove this option. If using 1♠-1NT as artificial it is probably wise to play it as a puppet to 2♣. Then 2♦ could be a sign-off and 2M could perhaps be invitational.

[Free]

benlessard, on 2015-February-12, 06:50, said:

Ive never understood limited transfers openings, if my 1D opening is forcing and show 4H and ive got 20 pts with 6H than its clear to me that this hand fit better in 1D than under a strong club. Are most opening in Moscito forcing ?

Moscito has a full relay structure. The transfer openings allow us to let the relayer play more often (by bidding the Major, you immediately rightside* the contract when there's a Major fit). When the range is too big, you need extra space to describe strength very early on, which just isn't available or hurts your relays. That's why limited openings are a much better choice than a wide range in Moscito.

As Richard said, the transfer openings aren't forcing. Responder is allowed to pass with weak hands, but it's definitely not a great choice when Vulnerable. In older Moscito versions it was risky to bid because 1trf-1NT-2m showed 5-4 or 4-5 and you didn't know which suit was longest (you couldn't just relay because that was GF).
In the newer Moscito versions you run less risk by responding with very weak hands. The relay is no longer GF and opener will describe his hand natural. A 2-level contract in a decent fit is usually better than playing 1♦/♥ in an unknown fit. Imo this is a much better approach: you gain on part score deals at the cost of some relay efficiency (and symmetry). You only run the risk of opener jumping, but in that case he has a nice offensive hand.

(* rightsiding in this context means that the unknown hand is declarer and the known hand is dummy, which makes defending much more difficult)

[Free]

I don't like opening 1♦/♥ with balanced hands. When they're always unbalanced, it makes bidding VERY easy:
1♥-1♠ (4+♠ unbal ; relay)
?
1NT = 4♠, longer m (now 2♣ P/C and 2♦ GF relay)
2m/♥ = 5+♠, 4+m/♥
2♠ = 6+♠ singlesuited
(similar to 1♦ openings)

The only drawback is that you have to open 1NT with all 4441's (short Major) and 5332 (not a big deal).

Imo the tradeoffs to make your 1♣ stronger aren't worth it. 1NT would also need to be the weak version imo, so you put up pressure. But really, 2NT 11-15 with both minors? I'm sure you'll also do it with a 10-count or even 9-counts when the hcp are nicely distributed. How on earth is partner going to be able to judge his hand? And you also need 2 bids to show 5-4 in the minors, so you lose some preemptive options as well! I'd rather just play the original structure with 1NT as 12-15 and pass balanced 11-counts.

[Kungsgeten]

Free, on 2015-February-14, 05:29, said:

I don't like opening 1♦/♥ with balanced hands. When they're always unbalanced, it makes bidding VERY easy:
1♥-1♠ (4+♠ unbal ; relay)
?
1NT = 4♠, longer m (now 2♣ P/C and 2♦ GF relay)
2m/♥ = 5+♠, 4+m/♥
2♠ = 6+♠ singlesuited
(similar to 1♦ openings)

The only drawback is that you have to open 1NT with all 4441's (short Major) and 5332 (not a big deal).

Imo the tradeoffs to make your 1♣ stronger aren't worth it. 1NT would also need to be the weak version imo, so you put up pressure. But really, 2NT 11-15 with both minors? I'm sure you'll also do it with a 10-count or even 9-counts when the hcp are nicely distributed. How on earth is partner going to be able to judge his hand? And you also need 2 bids to show 5-4 in the minors, so you lose some preemptive options as well! I'd rather just play the original structure with 1NT as 12-15 and pass balanced 11-counts.

You do not have to exclude 5M332 from 1♠ if you want to play 1red as unbalanced. When we played Moscito we included 5M332 into 1red and in the sequence you described (the relay) we played:

1♥-1♠;
1NT = 5+ spades or 4144, not 4 hearts
2m = 5+ minor, 4 spades
2♥ = 5+ spades, 4 hearts
2♠ = 5+ spades, 5 card minor
2NT = 5-5 majors
3m = 5 spades, 6+ minor

If playing the transfer openings as unbalanced I think the structure you suggest is better though. We often played 5-2 fits in the major when we could play a 4-4 or even 5-4 minor fit instead.

The minor structure (2m as natural, 2NT as 5-5 minors) was played by Nyström-Bertheau in their strong club system and Peterson-Ahlesved played the same structure when Sweden won the world mind games. But just like you (and I) said; this structure lose preemptive options in 2♦ and 2NT compared to the original Moscito structure.

[benlessard]

Quote

When the range is too big, you need extra space to describe strength very early on, which just isn't available or hurts your relays. That's why limited openings are a much better choice than a wide range in Moscito.

if responder is inv+ it doesnt change anything. if responder make a non forcing bid opener can probably make a forcing bid (2Nt maybe) to show 20+ hand forcing. So at the cost of playing the opening forcing you increase the precision on strong hand by limiting the crazyness under 1C.

Is 1D-2C-3D (I guess showing something like 4H+6D and 13pts) not forcing really useful ?

Also after 1D what do I do if Ive got a raise but im 0-5 ? is it 1NT ?

[straube]

benlessard, on 2015-February-16, 18:18, said:

if responder is inv+ it doesnt change anything. if responder make a non forcing bid opener can probably make a forcing bid (2Nt maybe) to show 20+ hand forcing. So at the cost of playing the opening forcing you increase the precision on strong hand by limiting the crazyness under 1C.

Are you suggesting something like...

1C-forcing, mostly balanced hands, maybe some with minors

1D-forcing, hearts
.....1H-GI+ relay?
.....1S-put 0-5 here?
..........2N-20+?

1H-forcing, spades
.....1S-GI+ relay
.....1N-put 0-5 here?
..........2N-20+?

[Kungsgeten]

benlessard, on 2015-February-16, 18:18, said:

Also after 1D what do I do if Ive got a raise but im 0-5 ? is it 1NT ?

We played the following responses to 1red:

Relay = a) GF b) Weak, usually balanced, with 2 card support c) INV or mild slam interest with 4 card support and an SPL d) Mild slam interest with 4 card support and a void e) Constructive raise with 3 card support, about 8-10
1♠ = Natural, F1. Opener support with 3, bid 1NT with 5 hearts (or 1444), bid 5+ minor or rebid hearts with 6+.
1NT = Transfer to clubs. Could be 2-4-3-3 after 1♥ if INV. Could be 4♣ and 5♦ if INV. Otherwise 5+♣ and ca 0-15 hcp (no slam interest).
2♣ = Transfer to diamonds. 5+♦ and 0-15 hcp.
2♦ = Transfer to hearts. 5+♥ and 0-15 hcp.
2M-1 = Transfer raise. Limit raise (about 11-13) with 3 card support or constructive raise (about 8-10) with 4 card support. Could also be choice of game with 3 card support.
2M = Weak, 3+M. About 0-8 hcp.
2NT = Limit+ with 4 card support.
3X = Weak
3NT+ = To play

I'll admit that the relay is a bit overloaded, but it worked okay. I think most Moscito players raise directly with 3 card support and 8-10, but we were afraid of the Moysians and partner missing game not knowing if we had 0 or 10 hcp for our raise

After the transfers to a new suit we played a new suit by responder as INV and non-forcing. You could also support opener's major, rebid your suit and various other actions to show constructive to invitational values. We also had some choice of game options available.

[hrothgar]

benlessard, on 2015-February-16, 18:18, said:

Also after 1D what do I do if Ive got a raise but im 0-5 ? is it 1NT ?

You pass. If you have 0-5 HCP, then the opponents have at least 25 HCP between them.
If 1D gets passed out, partner will probably go down a lot but the opponents have game.