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This was a bad slam that got worse when the defense cashed the first two clubs.
Who is to blame here? North was a JPB robot.
Assign the blame Man or Computer
#1
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Posted 2015-January-22, 08:50
This was a bad slam that got worse when the defense cashed the first two clubs.
Who is to blame here? North was a JPB robot.
#2
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Posted 2015-January-22, 08:55
50% to both. Either player could have shut it down after failure to bid 5♣ or 4♣ respectively.
#3
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Posted 2015-January-22, 09:16
100% system.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
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#4
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Posted 2015-January-22, 09:19
North has no business going to 6S when he knows you're off two cashing clubs.
ahydra
ahydra
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Posted 2015-January-22, 09:43
ahydra, on 2015-January-22, 09:19, said:
North has no business going to 6S when he knows you're off two cashing clubs.
And how on earth does he (it) know that?
Anyway, the fact that responders to this thread aren't even bothering to read the alerts because mixed cuebids are so standard nowadays should tell the OP everything he needs to know.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
-- Bertrand Russell
-- Bertrand Russell
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Posted 2015-January-22, 09:46
mgoetze, on 2015-January-22, 09:43, said:
And how on earth does he (it) know that?
Anyway, the fact that responders to this thread aren't even bothering to read the alerts because mixed cuebids are so standard nowadays should tell the OP everything he needs to know.
Anyway, the fact that responders to this thread aren't even bothering to read the alerts because mixed cuebids are so standard nowadays should tell the OP everything he needs to know.
In that style, North should bid 5♠ to deny a club control and then South can't go on without one either.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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Posted 2015-January-22, 09:55
gordontd, on 2015-January-22, 09:46, said:
In that style, North should bid 5♠ to deny a club control and then South can't go on without one either.
Agree. North cannot bid the slam without a club control.
This is why the 2NT opening bid is sometimes referred to as a "slam-killer." It takes up so much space that there is no room for intelligent slam exploration once a fit is found. Still, if the partnership were using control cue bids rather than ace first cue bids, it would be easy to avoid slam.
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Posted 2015-January-22, 10:27
Yeah. Sadly GIB doesn't give me a choice there.
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Posted 2015-January-22, 10:44
It's been a while since I played 1st round controls, but I seem to remember that playing that scheme South should bid 4NT showing the trump ace. It might have gone
2NT 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
4NT 5♦ (no 2nd round club control)
5♠ (ze end)
There's a reason why 1/2nd round controls + RKCB got more popular. Under this, North would bid 4♦ and South knows immediately of the club "hole".
2NT 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
4NT 5♦ (no 2nd round club control)
5♠ (ze end)
There's a reason why 1/2nd round controls + RKCB got more popular. Under this, North would bid 4♦ and South knows immediately of the club "hole".
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Posted 2015-January-22, 11:28
gordontd, on 2015-January-22, 09:46, said:
In that style, North should bid 5♠ to deny a club control and then South can't go on without one either.
Yes, this. It is not right to blame the system, when North didn't use the system.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2015-January-22, 11:39
aguahombre, on 2015-January-22, 11:28, said:
Yes, this. It is not right to blame the system, when North didn't use the system.
I blame the programmer of this Idiot Bot for not teaching it how to better cue bid to slam.
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Posted 2015-January-22, 12:02
whereagles, on 2015-January-22, 10:44, said:
It's been a while since I played 1st round controls, but I seem to remember that playing that scheme South should bid 4NT showing the trump ace. It might have gone
2NT 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
4NT 5♦ (no 2nd round club control)
5♠ (ze end)
There's a reason why 1/2nd round controls + RKCB got more popular. Under this, North would bid 4♦ and South knows immediately of the club "hole".
2NT 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
4NT 5♦ (no 2nd round club control)
5♠ (ze end)
There's a reason why 1/2nd round controls + RKCB got more popular. Under this, North would bid 4♦ and South knows immediately of the club "hole".
The trump cue bid is definitely an optional component. Very few players use trump cue bids to the best of my knowledge. I did with one partner many years ago.
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Posted 2015-January-22, 12:09
neilkaz, on 2015-January-22, 11:39, said:
I blame the programmer of this Idiot Bot for not teaching it how to better cue bid to slam.
If North was the Bot, fine. But, ATB is about which player is responsible for the result. We can lament having inferior methods at our leisure.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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Posted 2015-January-22, 12:23
South is probably to blame for going past 4♠. He knows North doesn't have the ♣A and the lead is coming through dummy so unless it has ♣KQ you're in trouble straight away. North probably has a stiff diamond on this auction, in which case it might well be light on points. You don't necessarily have 5-level safety either (change ♠Q to ♥Q for example).
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Posted 2015-January-22, 15:52
North cannot cue 4♥ missing a club control.
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Posted 2015-January-22, 16:08
Didn't GIB use to play natural slam tries in such auctions after 3♠, and then later one of the "improvements" changed it to cuebids?
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Posted 2015-January-22, 17:01
mgoetze, on 2015-January-22, 09:16, said:
100% system.
Gib cuebids Aces first. In a situation like this where one hand is so much weaker than the other having the ability to cue A/K's really shows it's superiority. Plus it is well known Gib doesn't take the right inferences from cuebidding so it's close to being pointless to try.
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Posted 2015-January-23, 06:59
Why play w/ Bots EVER!! This is a prime example proving that you cannot program advanced actions.
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Posted 2015-January-23, 07:25
S should sign off in 4S. N will go on if slam is good (e.g. Qxxxx AQxx x KQx which still needs spades to break).
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Posted 2015-January-23, 08:10
gordontd, on 2015-January-22, 09:46, said:
In that style, North should bid 5♠ to deny a club control and then South can't go on without one either.
whereagles, on 2015-January-22, 10:44, said:
It's been a while since I played 1st round controls, but I seem to remember that playing that scheme South should bid 4NT showing the trump ace. It might have gone
2NT 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
4NT 5♦ (no 2nd round club control)
5♠ (ze end)
There's a reason why 1/2nd round controls + RKCB got more popular. Under this, North would bid 4♦ and South knows immediately of the club "hole".
2NT 3♣
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 4♥
4NT 5♦ (no 2nd round club control)
5♠ (ze end)
There's a reason why 1/2nd round controls + RKCB got more popular. Under this, North would bid 4♦ and South knows immediately of the club "hole".
If you are playing 1st round control cue-bids, then whereagles' rolling 4N approach seems preferable to gordontd's. I doubt the Robot knows either method.