[mgoetze]

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Is South too strong for an IJO? Should North have bid 3NT?

[broze]

Isn't an IJO like a hand that would bid 3D after (1S) P (P)? South's hand looks nothing like what I would call an IJO.

[PhilKing]

I play these, but it's just a question of range.

My system definition, when bidding 3m vulnerable, is that I have a hand that would open 1m and rebid 3m, so this is a decent max. But what's the point of playing it as invitational if you don't want to bid 3NT with the North hand?

But it just comes down to partnership agreement. Obviously North has a 3NT bid even if you play them a bit weaker. I think 2M should show quite a bit less, but 3m should be kept up to scratch. Since we are only really inviting 3NT, and contracting for a minor with a constructive hand already necessitates taking 9 tricks, not trying 3NT when you have a reasonable shot is just losing bridge.

[broze]

Oh. So 'I' stands for "invitational" as opposed to "intermediate"? That makes more sense lol

[PhilKing]

broze, on 2015-January-17, 19:20, said:

Oh. So 'I' stands for "invitational" as opposed to "intermediate"? That makes more sense lol

It can stand for whatever you want, but if the North hand is not an acceptance as a passed hand, then there is not really much point playing them as anything other than "c".

[vinchy]

Is there too little value of 3d as a preempt to justify this? In my current system, this would certainly be a preempt. I would only play this as strong after (1S) P (P) as mentioned.

As for hand strength, I would consider the N-S hands to be of ideal strength, for their purposes. (S as a strong diamond hand, N with sufficient support) As N I would definitely go to 3NT.

[mgoetze]

vinchy, on 2015-January-17, 19:30, said:

Is there too little value of 3d as a preempt to justify this? In my current system, this would certainly be a preempt.

Matter of taste... I am currently playing IJOs when vulnerable only. Certainly, when non-vulnerable, you want 3♦ to be preemptive.

[mgoetze]

PhilKing, on 2015-January-17, 17:24, said:

My system definition, when bidding 3m vulnerable, is that I have a hand that would open 1m and rebid 3m, so this is a decent max. But what's the point of playing it as invitational if you don't want to bid 3NT with the North hand?

Probably our view of their range is too wide. Thanks, Phil, this helped.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2015-January-17, 17:24, said:

My system definition, when bidding 3m vulnerable, is that I have a hand that would open 1m and rebid 3m

If that's what you call an "intermediate jump overcall", what does the term "strong jump overcall" mean to you?

[cherdano]

For me, and intermediate jump shift to 3m is a hand with a 7-card suit that would like to bid 1m-3m, but is a little afraid to do so for lack of high cards. E.g. make the ♣A a small diamond.
I wonder what the right bid is opposite that with the North hand...
More seriously, I think it's a common mistake by partnerships to agree on intermediate jumps, even agree on a range, but then don't realize how often they should bid game opposite this range.

[PhilKing]

gnasher, on 2015-January-18, 04:40, said:

If that's what you call an "intermediate jump overcall", what does the term "strong jump overcall" mean to you?

I guess I spend too much time discussing these things with TT. This would be a minimum SJO.

[kgr]

vinchy, on 2015-January-17, 19:30, said:

Is there too little value of 3d as a preempt to justify this? In my current system, this would certainly be a preempt. I would only play this as strong after (1S) P (P) as mentioned.

mgoetze, on 2015-January-18, 04:25, said:

Matter of taste... I am currently playing IJOs when vulnerable only. Certainly, when non-vulnerable, you want 3♦ to be preemptive.

Or matter of system:
For my partner and me 2♦=4c♠ & longer ♦;
and therefor 3♦=IJO because we don't have a natural 2♦.
And the range for 3♦ is 10-15 for us, South is too strong for it.

[mr1303]

For me an IJO would be AQJ to 7 and an outside ace or similar.

I might chance 3nt opposite that as North hoping for 7 diamonds, ace of spades and another trick in the wash.

[benlessard]

Its all a matter of range and agreements but if we look at some goals

IMO There is mainly 4 sensible goals for a IJS/SJO

1-reaching game .. your afraid that partner pass your simple overcall so these SJO cover strongs hands and overlap with X and bid (17-20). partner as advancer vs a simple overcall may now pass 8 count more easily.

2-your afraid opps will find a cheap save over your game. This should only be used at unfavorable

(1D)--2S (when your unfavorable) you aiming at 4S but want to make it harder for them to compete or sac (great 14 to 18) the frequency is a lot higher than SJO

3- X and bid is now a flexible hand and denies a great suit. This should only be applied when they open 1m.

(1D)-X-(P)-1S
(P)-2H

35?? or a ?5?4 with 16-19 pts (obviously X and cue is no longer 100% Gf)

4- You think preempting with weakish hand is pointless and give away too much information for the odds of buying the hand. So these "preempts" are similar to Trent weak 2's.

I recommend sticking with case one its simpler even if the frequency is low and you lower a bit when its a jump in 2M. Not vul giving away the preempts would simply be unfathomable for me and my partners.

[benlessard]

A side question would be

Unfavorable
(1S)---??

assuming that your hand allow you to bid 3H fairly safely wich type are you more likely to have ?

1-a hand with awesome trumps/
2- a mix hand of great trumps and pts
3- good trumps and vgood pts ?

KQJTxxxx and nothing else

KQJT98x and a side ace

KQT98xx and AQ+AJ

I think case 2 is way more likely, however It doesnt mean that using 3H for these most probable hands is logical.

[Zelandakh]

IJOs were traditionally the equivalent of a minimum opening, about 12-15. Obviously you can agree whatever you like though. PK's definition of a 1m-1M; 3m hand (strong opener) was commonly referred to as a SJO in the literature of my youth, albeit with a higher upper range.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2015-January-19, 11:20, said:

IJOs were traditionally the equivalent of a minimum opening, about 12-15. Obviously you can agree whatever you like though. PK's definition of a 1m-1M; 3m hand (strong opener) was commonly referred to as a SJO in the literature of my youth, albeit with a higher upper range.

I thought SJOs are forcing. 11-15 is about what I have in my head for 2-level IJOs, but it feels right to me that it should be stronger at the 3 level. I thought +2 points, so 13-17, but as Phil points out, what's the point if you're not going to be able to "accept" with a max pass... so his definition makes sense to me.

[cherdano]

You really need to make the range narrower than that, and also discuss the handtype fairly precisely. Otherwise, you are worse off than after a simple overcall and taking it from there.