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Overcall or double?

Poll: Overcall or double? (50 member(s) have cast votes)

Your bid

  1. 4 Hearts (3 votes [6.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.00%

  2. Double (45 votes [90.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.00%

  3. Other (2 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

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#1 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 12:20


May 2003: Mission accomplished
Oct 2006: Mission impossible
Soon: Mission illegal
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 12:24

X, my overcalls can be a few as 6 hcp. xx,AQxxx,xxx,xxx
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#3 User is offline   mgoetze 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 12:32

You don't have a preempt, so why bid one? The choice for me is between 1 and double, not 4 and double.
"One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"
    -- Bertrand Russell
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#4 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 13:18

With Qx in their suit, I'm less worried about the bidding coming back to me at the 5-level. Even if I weren't, there's just no way I can bid any number of hearts and expect P to find slam when it's on.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 13:31

Double seems obvious. Partner will never believe you are this strong if you pre-empt.

Double, followed by 4 hearts, gives your partner good information to judge your strength when a high level decision is needed.
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 13:39

View Postjillybean, on 2015-January-03, 12:24, said:

X, my overcalls can be a few as 6 hcp. xx,AQxxx,xxx,xxx

while I agree with the double, my advice is that with xx AQxxx xxx xxx red v white, you should pass at all forms of scoring. You are asking for trouble, and not merely or even mainly at the 1-level. You have a partner who may feel it appropriate to bid his or her hand, and be disappointed when you don't hold one of your own.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#7 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 17:09

Double first. You need to start showing the value of your hand. It's much too strong to bid just 1 . Yeah, the pointed suit queens probably aren't worth full weight, but still you have a 20 count with a solid suit.

If opener has a minimum -- say a 12 count -- there may 7 or 8 HCP out there between partner and responder. If the remaining points split evenly, partner might just have enough for game to be on. Then again, partner might be bust and you might have trouble making more than 8 tricks. Since you can't know what partner holds, you need to bring partner into the loop to decide how high to go.

If it comes back at something like 2 , I'd be strongly inclined to bid 3 inviting partner to bid 4 with a perceived positive feature. An A, KJ or a pointed suit stiff with a trump fit would be enough.
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#8 User is offline   masonbarge 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 19:29

Double except playing with the GIB. You'd end up in 6 across from Kxxxx in spades.
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#9 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2015-January-03, 20:05

This is a double. Nothing else comes to mind.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#10 User is offline   upsman 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 04:14

i wonder , if theres somebody in world, who wont double.
after 1 normally it will go on like this:

1 - 1 - pass - pass - pass

congrats, in this case you lost at least full game.
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#11 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 05:36

Double is automatic.
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#12 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 06:38



This was at the local club pairs evening. On the previous board West had berated his partner for underbidding. Perhaps East's exceptionally light opening bid of 1had something to do with this. 4 was made giving us a bottom.

I am chastened by the poll results because I overcalled 4 intending it to shut out west. :( It didn't. MP pairs influenced me to go for the bash bid.

Had I doubled I don't think we would have fared any better. Bidding probably would go:
1-(x)-1-p-(2)-4-(4) -all pass? If we by any chance bid 5 we almost certainly go for 500.

btw My partner didnt like my 4H bid either
May 2003: Mission accomplished
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Soon: Mission illegal
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#13 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 07:12

I think if you start with 4 you have to double 4 to show a good hand. Now partner with that fit might bid 5 and opps may or may not bid 5 but I'm not sure they'd double 5. On this hand they won't, dunno how likely it is that they would on a different layout.

#14 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 08:38

The fact you got a zero because the room failed to bid a cold 4!S (+1 on H lead) is not your fault. I would be happier to overcall 1H, I'll get another chance, we may belong in NT. Yes you have lots of playing tricks, but not so much defence really.
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#15 User is offline   rhambha 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 12:04

I would dble and then jump to H
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#16 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 12:46

Theoretical approach: dbl + 4. Seems safe, as our hcp load makes it unlikely pard will find some silly advance like 4 Posted Image

Practical approach: direct 4 + dbl if opps butt-in.
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#17 User is offline   K1W1 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 14:57

Double then a suit should show at least 16 points. Shows partner the difference between this hand and a normal overcall
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#18 User is offline   biggerclub 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 15:39

Well I am alone at 4 . . . except for whereagle's practical approach (apparently not voted in the poll).

I am not worried about missing slam. Even less so when we find out it's matchpoints. (If you want to give partner every point in the deck, then you have to allow me to give opener a full opening bid.)

I am not all that proud of my 5 loser hand, despite 20 HCPs.

To me, this is last guess territory. So I say 4Hs. btw -- this is not a defensively oriented hand at all. 1 trick in (maybe) and 1 in so I am not doubling to show extra defense or anything like that.
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#19 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2015-January-04, 17:21

View PostK1W1, on 2015-January-04, 14:57, said:

Double then a suit should show at least 16 points. Shows partner the difference between this hand and a normal overcall


Right. But what good will that do to him? He's broke, so will pass a direct or delayed 4 98% of the time. And the other 2% he'll huddle and pass anyway :)

Anyway, just kidding. Dbl + bid signals defensive values. Bid + dbl signals a more offensive hand.
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#20 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2015-January-05, 00:31

View PostWackojack, on 2015-January-04, 06:38, said:

This was at the local club pairs evening. On the previous board West had berated his partner for underbidding. Perhaps East's exceptionally light opening bid of 1had something to do with this. 4 was made giving us a bottom. I am chastened by the poll results because I overcalled 4 intending it to shut out west. :( It didn't. MP pairs influenced me to go for the bash bid. Had I doubled I don't think we would have fared any better. Bidding probably would go:
1-(x)-1-p-(2)-4-(4) -all pass? If we by any chance bid 5 we almost certainly go for 500. btw My partner didnt like my 4H bid either
IMO 3 (Stop ask) = 10, Double = 9, 1 = 8, 3N = 7, 4 = 6
But As WackoJack implies, this deal illustrates why a direct 4 is often the most effective call on such hands. After a 1 overcall, opponents would easily find their fit. Wackojack's more practical 4 overcall failed to win the auction only because LHO took a brave view.





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