[the hog]

Ok, here you go. Bid the good 6 and stay out of the bad 6 not using cues or asking bids.

AQxxx
QJx
xxx
Ax

and bid it with

AQxxx
Kxx
xxx
Ax

opposite:

KJxx
xx
AKQJx
Kx

[Zelandakh]

Sadly I have no relay sequence for a 5333 hand so I could not bid this on either.

[the hog]

Zelandakh, on 2015-January-02, 06:22, said:

Sadly I have no relay sequence for a 5333 hand so I could not bid this on either.

Fixed.

On a related note, I once played with a relay pair whose 4NT bid meant. I have no idea if the relay responses are correct to this stage. You better pass.

[Zelandakh]

the hog, on 2015-January-02, 06:42, said:

Fixed.

On a related note, I once played with a relay pair whose 4NT bid meant. I have no idea if the relay responses are correct to this stage. You better pass.

The partner with whom I played my system created a similar convention whilst she was learning it. If she reached the point where she did not know what to do she simply bid to the most likely contract with an impossible response. The first time was done "on the fly" and a bit of a shock - after that it just became an accepted part of the methods.

That even the partial relay system had a significant plus over natural was noteworthy (and unexpected). That could well be the case for the pair in question, in which case their usage for 4NT does not seem so unreasonable. Hopefully they have gotten past the learning stage by now and are able to use 4NT for something else.

[the hog]

Zelandakh, on 2015-January-02, 07:40, said:

The partner with whom I played my system created a similar convention whilst she was learning it. If she reached the point where she did not know what to do she simply bid to the most likely contract with an impossible response. The first time was done "on the fly" and a bit of a shock - after that it just became an accepted part of the methods.

That even the partial relay system had a significant plus over natural was noteworthy (and unexpected). That could well be the case for the pair in question, in which case their usage for 4NT does not seem so unreasonable. Hopefully they have gotten past the learning stage by now and are able to use 4NT for something else.

One of them ended up playing for Australia.

[the hog]

Others can also try but I don't think it is possible.

[ahydra]

Well there is the traditional "4D = stop" signal used in relay (other guy bids 4H and then the 4D bidder corrects to the final contract). When starting out with relays, probably best to always agree 3NT = to play and 4D = stop so if the wheels fall off you can stop somewhere sensible

ahydra

[Michael000]

Hi Hog, Thanks for this. First let me say I will bid this hand excatly how I would have bid it before joining this forum (which with the exception of recently convincing my partner to play Michaels is pretty much the same now). And, so that you can better educate me and entertain the masses I'll include my reasoning.

I'll call the opening hand North.

North has 13HCP and 5 spades. We play a NT re-bid as showing 16HCP so that is not an option but as we playing 4cm I have a valid re-bid in spades. I open 1♠

If I was South opposite that opening with the hands shown . . 17HCP, a fit in spades and great diamonds I would jump shift bid 3♦.

North - South's jump shift bid shows me 16+HCP and I know he's wondering if we have a slam. My hand doesn't lend it self to any form of encouragement; I'd bid 3♠

South - I now know North has 5 spades but I don't know how strong he is, I'd bid 4♣ (Gerber)

North bids 4♠ (two aces)

South knows they are an Ace short and bids 5♣.

North bids 5♦ (no kings)

South knows that they are a Ace and a King short he signs off with a bid of 5♠

With the second hand my bidding would be exactly the same up until

South - I now know North has 5 spades but I don't know how strong he is, I'd bid 4♣ (Gerber)

North bids 4♠ (two Aces)

South knows they are an Ace short and bids 5♣.

North bids 5♥ (one King)

South knows that they are short one Ace and have all four Kings . Looking at South's hand the missing Ace is either the A♥ or A♣ leaving either the K♥ or K♣ with no support. It's a 50/50 call on which side the Ace is and if it's on the wrong side it goes off so I would sign off with a bid of 5♠

Looking forward to hearing where I went wrong

[Vampyr]

Michael000, on 2015-January-02, 12:07, said:

Looking forward to hearing where I went wrong

Here:

Quote

It's a 50/50 call on which side the Ace is and if it's on the wrong side it goes off so I would sign off with a bid of 5♠

You have enough pitches to avoid a second ♥ loser.

[PhilKing]

the hog, on 2015-January-02, 05:40, said:

Ok, here you go. Bid the good 6 and stay out of the bad 6 not using cues or asking bids.



and bid it with

AQxxx
Kxx
xxx
Ax

opposite:

KJxx
xx
AKQJx
Kx

Change the North hand to:

AQxxx
Ax
xxx
QJx

[Michael000]

Vampyr, on 2015-January-02, 12:48, said:

Here:

You have enough pitches to avoid a second ♥ loser.

What, for example, with a heart lead if the missing Ace is the AH and it has A / Q behind it. Or A in from and Q behind.

[Vampyr]

Michael000, on 2015-January-02, 15:36, said:

What, for example, with a heart lead if the missing Ace is the AH and it has A / Q behind it. Or A in from and Q behind.

North is the declarer.

[Michael000]

PhilKing, on 2015-January-02, 13:30, said:

Change the North hand to:

AQxxx
Ax
xxx
QJx

I can do that and I will do it tomorrow but to clear up some points. . . I am not promoting Acol and I am not suggesting Acol is better than any other system; frankly I don't know. I am also not promoting myself or my bidding system as in anyway superior to anything else in fact I recognise that my bidding is simple even crude and unsophisticated. I am not sure that it needs to be any more complicated but the bulk of my questions on this forum have been about answering that question - do I need more. As I have just said in another post in another thread, whilst I VERY much enjoy my Bridge and I want to play better Bridge it is NOT by a long way the only thing or even the main thing in my life and so it has to get in the queue for my time. It just happens to be top of the queue right now because I'm injured and can't play golf.

[Zelandakh]

Michael, the point being made is that, amongst other things, cue bids are useful for determining if a side has 2 quick losers in a side suit. This in turn gives 5 level safety. The other slam tool that you have rejected, splinters, are critical for finding many low-hcp slams. Having KQJx opposite partner's singleton is quite different from xxxx. There is no substitute for either of these within Gerber.

The truth is that you might well gain more in the long term by concentrating on cardplay and putting up with the bad contracts that result from the lack of system. Despite what Mike said, there are some pros that use a comparatively simple system, Zia being perhaps the most well known; but even these players include quite a lot more complexity than you are considering.

Eventually you will need to add some basics if you want to progress though. It is possible to be an "expert" in the Acol Club with little more than the ability to talk the talk but if you get outside into the bigger pond you will find that an average of -0.03 there marks your level as low-mid intermediate. Your system is perfectly satisfactory for this rating if you are happy with your current level.

Finally, a system point if you do not change. After the 4♠ response to 4♣, I see you are using 5♣ to ask for kings. Whilst this is traditional, you basically lose nothing by using 4NT instead.

[Michael000]

Zelandakh, on 2015-January-03, 04:34, said:

Michael, the point being made is that, amongst other things, cue bids are useful

Finally, a system point if you do not change. After the 4♠ response to 4♣, I see you are using 5♣ to ask for kings. Whilst this is traditional, you basically lose nothing by using 4NT instead.

Thanks I will get the book out and learn to use Cue bids properly and thanks for the tip on the switch from Gerber to Blackwood.

[PhilKing]

Michael000, on 2015-January-03, 08:52, said:

Thanks I will get the book out and learn to use Cue bids and thanks for the tip on the switch from Gerber to Blackwood.

That's exactly what a troll would say.



Note - the above is an inappropriate attempt at humour.

[ahydra]

Michael000, on 2015-January-03, 08:52, said:

Thanks I will get the book out and learn to use Cue bids and thanks for the tip on the switch from Gerber to Blackwood.

It's not really Blackwood. Basically what Zelandakh is suggesting is an enhancement to Gerber, where the next step up (non-trump suit) is used to ask for kings rather than always 5C. So eg after 4C-4H (one ace), with anything other than spades as trumps 4S would be used to ask for kings, to which a 4NT response would show 0, 5C one, etc. And if spades were trumps then you would have to bid 4NT to ask. This saves you some room (and potentially allows you to ask for queens?!)

Cue bids are wonderful things - but if you do decide to play them with a regular partner, be sure to agree which style to use:

1) The first cue bid in a suit shows a first round control (ace/void) only. If you later repeat the suit you show both a first and second round control. If you don't cuebid the suit when you had a chance to, but then later do cuebid that suit, you show a second round control only.
2) The first cue bid of a suit shows a first and/or second round control(ace/void/King/singleton). If you later repeat the suit you show both first and second round controls.

I believe the modern preference is for style (2).

ahydra

[jillybean]

Can I add to this:
2) The first cue bid of a suit shows a first and/or second round control(ace/void/King/singleton). If you later repeat the suit you show both first and second round controls.
2a) If the first cue is above game level it promises first round control

[Michael000]

I had hoped to see this hand bid by the 'expert' step by step as I did. I have studied Cue bids sufficient to simply bid them and recognise the values when they are being bid but with the hand posted I can't see what South's response would be,

North opens 1♠

If at this stage South bids 2♦ does this affect his ability to later bid Diamonds as a Cue Bid later on?
If at this stage South bids 2♠ or 3♠ does he risk the possibility of North passing.

[fromageGB]

Michael000, on 2015-January-03, 09:23, said:

I had hoped to see this hand bid by the 'expert' step by step as I did. I have studied Cue bids sufficient to simply bid them and recognise the values when they are being bid but with the hand posted I can't see what South's response would be,

North opens 1♠

If at this stage South bids 2♦ does this affect his ability to later bid Diamonds as a Cue Bid later on?
If at this stage South bids 2♠ or 3♠ does he risk the possibility of North passing.

Yes, yes, and yes. The bidding with cue bids?

Looks like you need another convention, an immediate response which shows game forcing 4 card spade support. Most people play a version of "Jacoby 2NT". Start with 1♠ 2NT and then you know what suit you will end up in, and at least in game, but the continuations after 2NT need careful agreement. As North, I would rebid a cheap 3♣ to show a minimum 12-14 hand with no void but possibly with any suit singleton.

Sadly, I don't think simple cue bidding and ace asking will work here. South could cue with 4♣ then ...

With hog's first hand, north cannot cue a red suit, so bids 4♠, which south passes. So OK on this one.

With hog's second hand, he can cue bid 4♥. Now you could use common RKCB with 4NT asking, but the response of 5♥ = "2 aces with the ♠Q" is no good to you. Opener could have a low doubleton club and you lose the first 2 tricks. You don't find the slam this way.

So you might add another convention, using 3NT (agreed as "not to play" when you have agreed a major) here to ask north to start cue bidding. North bids 4♣ with both hands. South continues by cue bidding 4♦.

With hog's first hand, he can't cue 4♥ so bids 4♠ which south passes. Again OK.
With hog's second hand, he cues 4♥ and south continues with ace asking to hear 5♥ = "2 aces with the ♠Q".

South reasons as follows. There is an ace missing. If the ace of clubs is missing, north must have a shortage for the club cue, so clubs are safe from the lead. If the ace of hearts is missing, he will have the king of hearts for his cue, so you will lose a heart but are safe from the lead. So you could bid 6♠.

This is an example showing the use of cue bids, but it is not a perfect slam bid this way, because if the trump ace is missing, you are at risk on a heart lead and continuation after the first round of trumps. You may not decide to bid the slam because of this, and stop in 5♠ when opener does not have 3 aces. However, on these methods, it is better than 50-50.