[mikeh]

 The_Badger, on 2015-January-02, 12:49, said:

Jinksy. How dare you even suggest an "elite" list of posters to an open forum! This will offend many, including me, and this will be the last post I shall write for BBO. I give my time, effort and bridge knowledge that I have acquired over 30 years for free, and now some selection of the "fittest" is suggested. What makes it even worse is that it has ended up on BBO's main site for discussion - why? I thought eugenics went out of fashion with the Third Reich!

No, I haven't been drinking, or had a bad day, it's just that I dislike intolerance intensely. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and we may not agree with them, but that's what democracy is all about. Even on a bridge forum.

I recently started writing on this forum as I used to write chess and bridge columns for local newspapers, and even had a few articles published in national ones (The Telegraph, Daily Mail) in years gone by. A lot of my competitive bridge in my teens was against Life Masters and soon-to-be Grandmasters, including a few world championship contenders. I learnt fast!

Bridge players are competent enough to sort the wheat from the chaff on forums. They are intelligent as they have endeavoured to learn and play this difficult card game. Let them decide for themselves and make their own judgements on the content of the forums. Period.

While I was one of the first responders and didn't/don't like the idea at all, I have no clue as to where you find your righteous indignation

It was an idea. It wasn't, as the community response showed, an idea that landed on fertile ground, but that's all it was, and nowhere did he suggest that ONLY those posters 'elected' to be on a 'strongest poster' list should be able to post or should be seen as the only voices to which attention ought to be paid. I don't see any trace of 'intolerance' in the idea, anymore than I see intolerance in the notion that a professional sports league can have a 'Hall of Fame' or even an All-Star game.

Those players who didn't make it into the hall of fame or an all-star game aren't being subjected to intolerance, any more than posters not 'elected' to the 'lists' would be. Many players unchosen had lots of fans who think that their player ought to be in the Hall of Fame or ought to be on the All Star team. And even those who clearly aren't of that calibre often have moments of greatness.

Of course, as is obvious from the reaction of the community, this isn't about to happen in real life, but just where was the insult to you, or to the community, that so outraged you as to cause you to stop posting?

If I read you correctly, you see your posting as a benefit to the community...you give us the benefit of your expertise for nothing. So why are you punishing the hundreds of readers who have nothing to do with the suggestion?

I don't mean, by the foregoing, that your postings aren't a benefit! Personally, I hope my posts often are, but I confess that altruism isn't the only motive for posting. I suspect that both you and I derive some ego satisfaction from the process as well

[mgoetze]

 The_Badger, on 2015-January-02, 12:49, said:

What makes it even worse is that it has ended up on BBO's main site for discussion - why?

Wow, I have often thought that the selection of forum threads put in BBO news was kind of random, but this was a really terrible choice, I might have to change my mind and conclude that actually the worst possible threads are the ones that get put on BBO news.

[diana_eva]

 mgoetze, on 2015-January-02, 13:43, said:

Wow, I have often thought that the selection of forum threads put in BBO news was kind of random, but this was a really terrible choice, I might have to change my mind and conclude that actually the worst possible threads are the ones that get put on BBO news.

It's automated. Threads with most views/replies get selected automatically for BBO News.

[steve2005]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-January-02, 06:17, said:

I think such a list would be very worthwhile and should even be stickied, with the proviso that it contains some clause about not bothering those on it directly on issues that could be put in a thread. My criteria would be simple: List 1 = players that have played at a World Championship (after a certain specified stage if deemed appropriate); List 2 = players that have represented their country below WC level.

Nice but there are a lot of good bridge players that can't write decently or have nothing interesting to say.

[cherdano]

 diana_eva, on 2015-January-02, 13:51, said:

It's automated. Threads with most views/replies get selected automatically for BBO News.

I respectfully suggest that this is a bad idea. For one thing, would it really take away too much time to have someone look over the selected thread for 15 seconds? For another, BBO News makes the impression of a manually edited compilation of articles. If you add some automated bits to that (something that many news sites do, as a "Most Read" or "Most Emailed" top ten list etc.), I think it would be better to label them as such.

[diana_eva]

 cherdano, on 2015-January-02, 16:22, said:

I respectfully suggest that this is a bad idea. For one thing, would it really take away too much time to have someone look over the selected thread for 15 seconds? For another, BBO News makes the impression of a manually edited compilation of articles. If you add some automated bits to that (something that many news sites do, as a "Most Read" or "Most Emailed" top ten list etc.), I think it would be better to label them as such.

We do check which topics get pushed into News and manually replace if they are completely ridiculous. I wasn't sure abt this one, and it had only one reply at the time it was published on BBO. Since I don't like to make decisions on my own when the masses have spoken otherwise, I thought it should stay unless things turn ugly. With so many of you thinking it's a bad idea I've replaced it with something else, so it's off the news now.

[MrAce]

 The_Badger, on 2015-January-02, 12:49, said:

Jinksy. How dare you even suggest an "elite" list of posters to an open forum! This will offend many, including me, and this will be the last post I shall write for BBO. I give my time, effort and bridge knowledge that I have acquired over 30 years for free, and now some selection of the "fittest" is suggested. What makes it even worse is that it has ended up on BBO's main site for discussion - why? I thought eugenics went out of fashion with the Third Reich!

No, I haven't been drinking, or had a bad day, it's just that I dislike intolerance intensely. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and we may not agree with them, but that's what democracy is all about. Even on a bridge forum.

I recently started writing on this forum as I used to write chess and bridge columns for local newspapers, and even had a few articles published in national ones (The Telegraph, Daily Mail) in years gone by. A lot of my competitive bridge in my teens was against Life Masters and soon-to-be Grandmasters, including a few world championship contenders. I learnt fast!

Bridge players are competent enough to sort the wheat from the chaff on forums. They are intelligent as they have endeavoured to learn and play this difficult card game. Let them decide for themselves and make their own judgements on the content of the forums. Period.

Hi there. Although I upvoted this reply, imho P.K,Vampyr,Diana are right on spot. You should not stop writing here for this. Imho your contributions are very important to all of us, regardless of who you are.

Although the topic he chose looks like targeting to stir the pot, which looks like it did, as Mike predicted, I do not believe this was Jinksy's intention. He has been posting and creating a lot of topics lately, more active than he was before. I may not agree with everything he says, in fact I agree with minority of his views. But I believe he is genuinely trying to be active and do something in BBF. Idk his age but I think he will be a very good player. I think anyone who reads and writes in forums will eventually be better, if they know how to pick the gem and not the worthless noise, just like good players pick up the important info during an auction or defense or play among so many other calls or carding.

I started to like him because

• He listens to others, even if who he listens to are mostly famous people, (there are some of us here in BBF, who will not even listen to established players and imo they are hopeless.)
• He contributes, whether we like his contributions or not, BBF needs such motivated posters.
• He chooses good hands most of the time and I find it good for my own education even after 35 years of playing bridge. I will never stop learning.
• I decided to have a more positive tone than before and tolerance to those who do not think alike me. After all I am also spending significant time in BBF and having a sour relation with the people I daily write back and forth is not good for me or for them and nonproductive for so many reasons. This I decided after Uday's post in news in BBO about the newcomers to BBO. And I replied there that I will keep that in mind.
• He is actually sharp and will be better by the time.
• He handles the harsh replies very well, without being too emotional about them and/or reacting like an ameteur unlike some of us including some our star players do in BBF.

But even if you disagree with some or everything I wrote, I still think you should reconsider your decision. If we just slam the door and walk away each time someone says something that really irritated us, we would have no posters left in BBF. I was not planning to reply to this topic, but I did just so I may change your mind.

Happy New Year to you and to everyone.

Timo

[mgoetze]

I am somewhat surprised how many people are taking The_Badger's "threat" to stop posting (after his 22nd post at that) seriously. It seemed like a funny bit of hyperbole to me. Honestly, if you would seriously stop posting on a forum because one member out of hundreds wrote something you find offensive, you don't belong on the internet anyway.

[mgoetze]

 diana_eva, on 2015-January-02, 17:17, said:

We do check which topics get pushed into News and manually replace if they are completely ridiculous. I wasn't sure abt this one, and it had only one reply at the time it was published on BBO. Since I don't like to make decisions on my own when the masses have spoken otherwise, I thought it should stay unless things turn ugly. With so many of you thinking it's a bad idea I've replaced it with something else, so it's off the news now.

I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. You should be putting topics there when you think they will be good... not until you are sure they won't be.

[the hog]

Badger, stay. I agree with Timo We need some sane people to balance out the nutters.

"I do not believe this was Jinksy's intention." Timo, I never figured that you were naive.

[Zelandakh]

 steve2005, on 2015-January-02, 16:21, said:

Nice but there are a lot of good bridge players that can't write decently or have nothing interesting to say.

Perhaps - I do not know enough top level bridge players to judge that - but I think you at least understand the point. It would be nice to be able to match the logins with the real names and real life bridge results. I have learned a lot of the names by now of course but still not all. And for a new poster there is really no link at all. Still, the community has voted against it so there it is. I think the initial presentation was wrong and it might well have worked if the impression of elitism had not come across. If I get back to posting regularly again I might try suggesting it again in a different form a few years down the line.

[diana_eva]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-January-03, 04:11, said:

Perhaps - I do not know enough top level bridge players to judge that - but I think you at least understand the point. It would be nice to be able to match the logins with the real names and real life bridge results. I have learned a lot of the names by now of course but still not all. And for a new poster there is really no link at all. Still, the community has voted against it so there it is. I think the initial presentation was wrong and it might well have worked if the impression of elitism had not come across. If I get back to posting regularly again I might try suggesting it again in a different form a few years down the line.

This is probably as close as we can get to a link between real life and forums, with no hurt feelings: http://www.bridgebas...s-and-the-like/

Who wants to introduce themselves can do so, without any constraints as to how much they need to reveal.

[paulg]

 diana_eva, on 2015-January-02, 17:17, said:

We do check which topics get pushed into News and manually replace if they are completely ridiculous. I wasn't sure abt this one, and it had only one reply at the time it was published on BBO. Since I don't like to make decisions on my own when the masses have spoken otherwise, I thought it should stay unless things turn ugly. With so many of you thinking it's a bad idea I've replaced it with something else, so it's off the news now.

 mgoetze, on 2015-January-02, 21:48, said:

I think you are approaching this from the wrong angle. You should be putting topics there when you think they will be good... not until you are sure they won't be.

Before promoting a post on the BBO News, which has a far wider readership than the forums, I think you should wait until a couple of decent posters have posted with meaningful contributions. You know, people like mikeh, Frances, the artist formerly known as jlall, etc.

Equally obviously, any thread where I've attempted humour should be automatically rejected.

[diana_eva]

 paulg, on 2015-January-03, 04:43, said:

Before promoting a post on the BBO News, which has a far wider readership than the forums, I think you should wait until a couple of decent posters have posted with meaningful contributions. You know, people like mikeh, Frances, the artist formerly known as jlall, etc.

Equally obviously, any thread where I've attempted humour should be automatically rejected.

Well the idea was for readers to join in and participate. If we push a topic into news after all the great ones replied, it's pretty much all done by then. That means, fresh topics shd get into news, topics where readers are still able to add their 2 cents along with everyone else, not just read and admire what jlall/mike,PK, etc have written already.

[Zelandakh]

 diana_eva, on 2015-January-03, 04:36, said:

This is probably as close as we can get to a link between real life and forums, with no hurt feelings: http://www.bridgebas...s-and-the-like/

I went through the list and got:

jlall		Justin Lall		aka JLOGIC, now PhantomSac; US international
Gerben47	Gerben Dirksen		German junior international
awm		Adam Meyerson
Elianna		Elianna Meyerson
MickyB		Mike Bell
gwnn		Csaba Daday
pclayton	Phil Clayton		now Phil
hrothgar	Richard Willey
CSGibson	Chris Gibson
PassedOut	Lynn Torkelson
Free		Frederick Staelens
Winstonm	Winston Munn
kfay		Kevin Fay
olegru		Oleg Rubinchik
jvage		John Våge		Norwegian Premier League
skjaeran	Harald Skjæran		Norwegian junior international; Norwegian 1st Division (= Premier League?)
easy		Fred Wills
jjsb		Brethes Sylvain
mishovnbg	Mihail Nedyalkov
JRG		John Goold
lukeg		Luke Gillespie
flytoox		Hongjun Zhong
DrTodd13	Todd A. Anderson
TheoKole	Theophilos Spyros Kolettis
toothbrush	Willem De Visschere
Vilgan		Eric Sieg
jocdelevat	Florin Diamandi
markleon	Mark Leonard
nick_s		Nick Southwell
GeeGee		Geoff Gray
jdaming		Jason Daming
larryberle	Larry Berle
Xiaolongnu	Kane Tan = Wen Yuan

I am sure we can produce a better list than this though! In particular, many posters only gave their first names (Fluffy, helene_t, inquiry, etc) and many commented on how easy the thread is to overlook down in The WC. Also, the thread dates back to 2003 and I am sure many BBFers have moved onwards and upwards since then.

Edit: can someone tell me how to retain the white space formatting please; I can never remember...

Edit2: Thanks Antrax!

[cherdano]

First of all, I agree that such an "official list of posters worth listening to" would be terrible. For one thing, there are BBF posters who started asking questions, and who know provide a lot of worthwhile input. For another, there are people who play very little (and as a result, win very little), yet make very thoughtful posts - rhm may be an example of this (I am just guessing - I don't know whether he has won anything that would put him on the above list).

However, I do have a lot of sympathy for Jinksy's motivation, as I agree about the underlying problem. There is a lot of good stuff posted on BBF, and a lot of not-so-useful stuff. Longtime posters know to separate the two quickly, e.g. by skipping content from posters who we personally haven't learned anything from in quite a while (plus maybe a skillful use of the "Managed Ignored Users" settings).
But it doesn't solve the problem. Newcomers will be confused or turned away by the not-so-useful stuff (btw, this applies both to newcomers who are new at bridge, and those who are already very good bridge players). In addition, it really means that there are two conversations going on - the one that you can see by reading the entire thread, and the one obtained by skipping posters with a bad reputation.

[ladydoc]

Jinsky, I think your posting is weird.
First of all, who cares who posts what? I certainly don't. Are these forums that important in your life that you would bother???
Just for amusements sake, I looked to see if I could find JDonn.... nope, nowhere in sight. His postings are the only ones I automatically look for:)
Besides being the nicest person on BBO, he's also one of the wisest....
But other than that... silly, disagreeable thought you had...
I wonder if there are people like you in politics? Sad....

[Zelandakh]

Josh was last posting as lalldonn, lady. Unfortunately he stopped again a little while back.

[mgoetze]

 ladydoc, on 2015-January-03, 16:20, said:

I wonder if there are people like you in politics? Sad....

Oh great, after this offensive post Jinksy will never post here again...

[Antrax]

[*]jlall	Justin Lall		aka JLOGIC, now PhantomSac; US international
[*]Gerben47	Gerben Dirksen		German junior international
[*]awm		Adam Meyerson
[*]Elianna	Elianna Meyerson
[*]MickyB	Mike Bell
[*]gwnn		Csaba Daday
[*]pclayton	Phil Clayton		now Phil
[*]hrothgar	Richard Willey
[*]CSGibson	Chris Gibson
[*]PassedOut	Lynn Torkelson
[*]Free		Frederick Staelens
[*]Winstonm	Winston Munn
[*]kfay		Kevin Fay
[*]olegru	Oleg Rubinchik
[*]jvage	John Våge		Norwegian Premier League
[*]skjaeran	Harald Skjæran		Norwegian junior international; Norwegian 1st Division (= Premier League?)
[*]easy		Fred Wills
[*]jjsb		Brethes Sylvain
[*]mishovnbg	Mihail Nedyalkov
[*]JRG		John Goold
[*]lukeg	Luke Gillespie
[*]flytoox	Hongjun Zhong
[*]DrTodd13	Todd A. Anderson
[*]TheoKole	Theophilos Spyros Kolettis
[*]toothbrush	Willem De Visschere
[*]Vilgan	Eric Sieg
[*]jocdelevat	Florin Diamandi
[*]markleon	Mark Leonard
[*]nick_s	Nick Southwell
[*]GeeGee	Geoff Gray
[*]jdaming	Jason Daming
[*]larryberle	Larry Berle
[*]Xiaolongnu	Kane Tan = Wen Yuan

 Zelandakh, on 2015-January-03, 06:15, said:

Edit: can someone tell me how to retain the white space formatting please; I can never remember...

On most forums, it's sufficient to use a fixed-width font, such as Courier New. It didn't work, so I used the workaround, [code] tags, which unfortunately has the effect of ignoring other tags, so no fancy bullets for the list.