BBO Discussion Forums: Yet another UI - amusingly low standard club game - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Yet another UI - amusingly low standard club game

#1 User is offline   lmilne 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 348
  • Joined: 2009-October-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 2014-December-29, 02:13



The auction speaks for itself, I believe. 3NT makes in comfort.

Thoughts?
0

#2 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2014-December-29, 03:00

View Postlmilne, on 2014-December-29, 02:13, said:



The auction speaks for itself, I believe. 3NT makes in comfort.

Thoughts?

What on Earth is the partnerhip agreement on the 1NT bid?

If North is allowed (by agreement) to pass then South should bid 3NT directly.
0

#3 User is offline   wank 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,866
  • Joined: 2008-July-13

Posted 2014-December-29, 03:12

if i play club bridge i consider this to be well within acceptable levels of cheating.
0

#4 User is offline   lmilne 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 348
  • Joined: 2009-October-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney, Australia

Posted 2014-December-29, 03:21

View Postpran, on 2014-December-29, 03:00, said:

What on Earth is the partnerhip agreement on the 1NT bid?

If North is allowed (by agreement) to pass then South should bid 3NT directly.


No special agreement - definitely not forcing!
0

#5 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2014-December-29, 03:53

View Postlmilne, on 2014-December-29, 03:21, said:

No special agreement - definitely not forcing!

At this apparent level I would then allow him to gracefully accept the given opportunity to reach game and let the table result stand.

I generally resent any use of the word "cheating" (or "cheat"), and especially in situations like this.
We want players to enjoy the game of bridge, and if this is their current level then so be it.
0

#6 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2014-December-29, 04:37

I wouldn't allow the 3NT bid, and in a club context I'd welcome it as a good opportunity to explain how these things work.

However, I would allow South to bid 2NT, and North might well then bid 3NT, so I'd expect to give them at least part of the table result, reached by another route.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#7 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2014-December-29, 06:33

I would certainly allow the 3NT bid. South could have bid 3NT on the first round. This has nothing to do with the hesitation.

Unrelated, you have to put up with more at the club level than you do in a higher level tournament. Many players at the club level do not understand and will never understand proper conduct.
0

#8 User is offline   pran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,344
  • Joined: 2009-September-14
  • Location:Ski, Norway

Posted 2014-December-29, 07:52

I was once summoned to a table by a player who also happened to be one of the best Directors we had in Norway at that time (she certainly outranked me then). I no longer remember the actual case other than that it was a matter of judgement - what I tolerated and what not, and my ruling could well have gone either way.

This was a regional (open) event "above average" and my ruling went against this player, but I added: "This is a situation where I rule differently in Masters' League and here.

She burst into laughter and exclaimed that she had absolutely no problem with that!
0

#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,611
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2014-December-29, 08:00

I think it is quite possible that after his first bid South found another ace. I would probably, like Gordon, give a weighted ruling.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#10 User is offline   ggwhiz 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,952
  • Joined: 2008-June-23
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-December-29, 10:07

I directed games of this stripe a long time ago and tried my best to rule as if it was a stronger game and gently explain why using "may" and "might" a lot in the attempt to raise the bar a bit and no, it never worked.

Not allowing the 3nt bid I would award avg+ and avg- or 10% of 10 different landing spots.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
What is baby oil made of?
0

#11 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2014-December-29, 10:15

Come on, people. You are allowed to make a bid that your hand demands that you make. Just because your partner hesitates, it does not mean that you can't take into account what is in front of your face.

Did anyone notice that partner opened the bidding, and that South holds 12 HCP and K98xx in the suit RHO bid twice?

I would also accept double as a reasonable action suggested by partner's opening bid and what is in front of your face, and it would have nothing to do with partner's hesitation.

Now, if South were to do something odd like pass over 2, or make some other bid, then I might have a problem. I might have a problem with 2NT, as this hand is clearly worth a game bid.

Any ruling other than 3NT stands is absurd.

By the way, the only peculiar bid made in the auction was 1NT, and that was made before the hesitation. East had a chance at a good score by passing out 1NT, but, quite understandably, he didn't do that. North's pass of 1NT is also far from clear, but that is probably why he hesitated.
0

#12 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-December-29, 11:03

View PostArtK78, on 2014-December-29, 10:15, said:

Come on, people. You are allowed to make a bid that your hand demands that you make. Just because your partner hesitates, it does not mean that you can't take into account what is in front of your face.

Did anyone notice that partner opened the bidding, and that South holds 12 HCP and K98xx in the suit RHO bid twice?

I would also accept double as a reasonable action suggested by partner's opening bid and what is in front of your face, and it would have nothing to do with partner's hesitation.

Now, if South were to do something odd like pass over 2, or make some other bid, then I might have a problem. I might have a problem with 2NT, as this hand is clearly worth a game bid.

Any ruling other than 3NT stands is absurd.

By the way, the only peculiar bid made in the auction was 1NT, and that was made before the hesitation. East had a chance at a good score by passing out 1NT, but, quite understandably, he didn't do that. North's pass of 1NT is also far from clear, but that is probably why he hesitated.

That is one way to think of it.

Another way is to consider that this south has already demonstrated that he did not consider his hand a game force. Then later, he does. And partner did nothing in the meantime to encourage this, other than hesitate.

Is pass a logical alternative for a good player? Obviously not. Is pass a logical alternative for this player? Perhaps.

Overall I am on the fence. Good one to post.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
0

#13 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 801
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, croquet

Posted 2014-December-29, 12:20

Is 3NT demonstrably suggested by partner's tank?

No!

Next case please.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
0

#14 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,398
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-December-29, 13:09

View Postbillw55, on 2014-December-29, 11:03, said:

That is one way to think of it.

Another way is to consider that this south has already demonstrated that he did not consider his hand a game force. Then later, he does. And partner did nothing in the meantime to encourage this, other than hesitate.

Is pass a logical alternative for a good player? Obviously not. Is pass a logical alternative for this player? Perhaps.

Basically, all we can really tell from this is that South doesn't know what he's doing, as his 1NT bid was a huge underbid. East could have passed and won the board (I'm not saying he should have, given what he holds), but reopening gave South a second bite at the apple, and he then noticed the extra king that he didn't count on the previous round.

I vote rub of the green, result stands. Sometimes you get fixed by idiots.

#15 User is offline   billw55 

  • enigmatic
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,757
  • Joined: 2009-July-31
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2014-December-29, 13:56

View Postweejonnie, on 2014-December-29, 12:20, said:

Is 3NT demonstrably suggested by partner's tank?

No!

Perhaps. But in cases like this, it is reasonable to group possible calls into pass and not-pass. The latter is certainly "demonstrably suggested" over the former.

View Postgordontd, on 2014-December-29, 04:37, said:

I wouldn't allow the 3NT bid, and in a club context I'd welcome it as a good opportunity to explain how these things work.

However, I would allow South to bid 2NT, and North might well then bid 3NT, so I'd expect to give them at least part of the table result, reached by another route.

And even if you enforce a pass on south, several final contracts are still possible, including 3NT. I like the idea of a weighted ruling.
Life is long and beautiful, if bad things happen, good things will follow.
-gwnn
0

#16 User is offline   Trinidad 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,531
  • Joined: 2005-October-09
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2014-December-29, 16:16

The simple solution, particularly at a club game, might well be to simply ask South why bid 3NT, and why he bid 1NT. You may get an honest answer that solves the problem.

Rik
I want my opponents to leave my table with a smile on their face and without matchpoints on their score card - in that order.
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the new discoveries, is not “Eureka!” (I found it!), but “That’s funny…” – Isaac Asimov
The only reason God did not put "Thou shalt mind thine own business" in the Ten Commandments was that He thought that it was too obvious to need stating. - Kenberg
0

#17 User is offline   dburn 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,154
  • Joined: 2005-July-19

Posted 2014-December-29, 17:53

You might also ask him why he didn't double 2. Maybe it would have been for takeout.
When Senators have had their sport
And sealed the Law by vote,
It little matters what they thought -
We hang for what they wrote.
0

#18 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2014-December-29, 20:21

View Postgordontd, on 2014-December-29, 04:37, said:

I wouldn't allow the 3NT bid, and in a club context I'd welcome it as a good opportunity to explain how these things work.

However, I would allow South to bid 2NT, and North might well then bid 3NT, so I'd expect to give them at least part of the table result, reached by another route.
If 1N was not forcing and the director judges that South's re-evaluation was suggested over pass by North's hesitation, I think the director should roll the contract back to 2H undoubled (assuming that contract is likely to have been reached without the use of UI)

Current director practice rewards and encourages players, who break the law, and increases the damage suffered by their victims. Inevitably, the standards of the game sink lower and lower.
2

#19 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-December-29, 20:40

South's hand is borderline between 2NT and 3NT, yet 1NT was (under)bid. Hesitation removes any doubt of carrying on: either North has extras or shape/length tricks (in this case he has both).

I think this is a rollback.
0

#20 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,760
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-December-29, 22:54

View Postwank, on 2014-December-29, 03:12, said:

if i play club bridge i consider this to be well within acceptable levels of cheating.



I don't
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users