BBO Discussion Forums: Hesitation 5H - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Hesitation 5H

#1 User is offline   shevek 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 707
  • Joined: 2006-September-29
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:whippets<br>anarchy<br>relay

Posted 2014-December-27, 20:14



Been called 3 times so far. 1 East doubled, other 2 bid 5.
IMPs. All 30 tables have played 5 or higher, some 5x.
Of course, some Wests must have bid 5 directly.
Calling NSs have been good players, EWs average

Views
0

#2 User is offline   mr1303 

  • Admirer of Walter the Walrus
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,558
  • Joined: 2003-November-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia
  • Interests:Bridge, surfing, water skiing, cricket, golf. Generally being outside really.

Posted 2014-December-27, 21:21

4S S -1 25% and 4S S - 2 75%.

5H is not allowed given the UI
0

#3 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2014-December-27, 22:48

I would have liked to assert that West used East's use of West's UI when he passed 5H. But, that doesn't work because 6H is cold.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#4 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,562
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2014-December-27, 23:38

View Postmr1303, on 2014-December-27, 21:21, said:

5H is not allowed given the UI

You need to be more specific than that. What information does the BIT convey? What are the LAs? Which LAs demonstrably could have been suggested over which others by the UI?
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#5 User is offline   shevek 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 707
  • Joined: 2006-September-29
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:whippets<br>anarchy<br>relay

Posted 2014-December-28, 00:00

I would pass as East but in 8 instances of the same auction, all East's peers chose to act.
Some of them might been opposite a BiT, don't know.
If you act, double is clearly better than 5. Do we disallow 5 because it is a poor choice?
The East who doubled opposite BiT said it was routine. All actions lead to 5 or so.

One concern is the possible lack of a director call at tables with poor to average players, where players don't realise they can get a better result by calling the director. Or they think it's mean.
0

#6 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2014-December-28, 02:38

At the table where East doubled, what did his "obvious" double mean? Regardless of the meaning, it doesn't seem at all obvious to me.

If it's anywhere in the takeout/card-showing spectrum, the most likely effect is that partner will bid 5. Why would you want to get to the five-level opposite xx xx xx KQxxxxx ?

If it's for penalties, I suppose you might do it, but there's no special reason to think 4 is going down.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#7 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2014-December-28, 02:45

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-December-27, 23:38, said:

You need to be more specific than that. What information does the BIT convey? What are the LAs? Which LAs demonstrably could have been suggested over which others by the UI?

The BIT conveys that West was considering action.

The LAs are pass, double and 5.

East knows from his spade holding, and possibly also from his methods, that whatever action West was considering was offensive action. Hence the UI suggests both 5 and double over pass.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
3

#8 User is offline   shevek 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 707
  • Joined: 2006-September-29
  • Location:Australia
  • Interests:whippets<br>anarchy<br>relay

Posted 2014-December-28, 06:51

View Postgnasher, on 2014-December-28, 02:38, said:

At the table where East doubled, what did his "obvious" double mean? Regardless of the meaning, it doesn't seem at all obvious to me.

If it's anywhere in the takeout/card-showing spectrum, the most likely effect is that partner will bid 5. Why would you want to get to the five-level opposite xx xx xx KQxxxxx ?

If it's for penalties, I suppose you might do it, but there's no special reason to think 4 is going down.




While not defending East's double, East may simply think that the hand has too much potential to pass. If partner passes the double and they make 790, no big deal.
East was hoping for pass or 5. She would convert 5 to 5 and hope for the best, aware that this sequence could be converting +50 to -500. Eh bien. East should probably pass 5. Partner might have
x xx QJTxxxx Axx

One thing I forgot to add is the location. Australia, so no skip bid warnings.
0

#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,562
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2014-December-28, 10:41

Is there a requirement in Australia for a longer than normal tempo over a skip bid? Or is "normal tempo" considered the same as over a simple bid, say 2-3 seconds for most folks?

I don't think "too much potential to pass" is enough in the presence of UI. Pass is still an LA, and so the constraints in Law 16B apply.

If pass is not an LA, then we have to consider whether any of the remaining LAs could demonstrably be suggested over another.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#10 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2014-December-28, 10:55

View Postshevek, on 2014-December-28, 06:51, said:

One thing I forgot to add is the location. Australia, so no skip bid warnings.

Thanks, but when you post that there was an agreed BIT, we should be working from there forward with it as an established fact. I further assume that a certain amount of time would be expected to have been taken by West, and the hesitation was noticeably more than that.

That seems to leave us with Andy's assessment and a rollback to 4S passed out. Down two seems routine.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#11 User is offline   weejonnie 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 801
  • Joined: 2012-April-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North-east England
  • Interests:Bridge Laws, croquet

Posted 2014-December-28, 14:13

The short answer is:

Is Pass a LA - it doesn't matter that it is an option per se.

In other words is it an action that a significant number of people would consider and some actually make?

The evidence we have 'all roads lead to 5 Hearts at least' suggests that pass is not a LA - but the only way you can tell is to poll (other) players and find out what they would do. If this is impossible then you may have to find out whether any other auctions went the same way as the one indicated. Iff that is impossible then you can adjudicate.

Note that if 4 Spades was to be doubled by East then West can take it out to 5 Hearts. Indeed there may be some auctions replicating that very sequence.
No matter how well you know the laws, there is always something that you'll forget. That is why we have a book.
Get the facts. No matter what people say, get the facts from both sides BEFORE you make a ruling or leave the table.
Remember - just because a TD is called for one possible infraction, it does not mean that there are no others.
In a judgement case - always refer to other TDs and discuss the situation until they agree your decision is correct.
The hardest rulings are inevitably as a result of failure of being called at the correct time. ALWAYS penalize both sides if this happens.
0

#12 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-December-29, 20:36

BIT suggests bidding on, and 5 is one of the alternatives to bid on.
0

#13 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2014-December-29, 20:42

View Postwhereagles, on 2014-December-29, 20:36, said:

BIT suggests bidding on not passing, and 5 is one of the alternatives to bid on passing.

FYP
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#14 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-December-29, 20:44

yeah whatever
0

#15 User is offline   WellSpyder 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,627
  • Joined: 2009-November-30
  • Location:Oxfordshire, England

Posted 2015-January-05, 06:46

View Postshevek, on 2014-December-28, 00:00, said:

I would pass as East but in 8 instances of the same auction, all East's peers chose to act.

Do you actually know it was the same auction, or simply that the hand wasn't played in 4? Perhaps West found a bid rather than just a hesitation over South's pre-empt?
1

#16 User is offline   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,576
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2015-January-05, 07:12

View Postblackshoe, on 2014-December-28, 10:41, said:

Is there a requirement in Australia for a longer than normal tempo over a skip bid? Or is "normal tempo" considered the same as over a simple bid, say 2-3 seconds for most folks?


No. Skip bid warnings are unheard of, and most people here wouldn't know what to do if they came across one.

They were introduced for the PABF in 2008, but completely ignored during that event (not just by Australians) and we've never heard of the concept again.
0

#17 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2015-January-05, 07:57

View Postshevek, on 2014-December-27, 20:14, said:


Been called 3 times so far. 1 East doubled, other 2 bid 5. IMPs. All 30 tables have played 5 or higher, some 5x. Of course, some Wests must have bid 5 directly. Calling NSs have been good players, EWs average. Views.
IMO...
sfi is right to consider similar events at other tables.
But a poll would probably confirm that Pass is an LA for East.
In view of East's holding, West's BIT is likely to indicate offensive values.
Hence, to East, the hesitation suggests action rather than pass.
East's 5 call damaged North-South.
So the TD should probably rule 4-1
(or 4-2 If the director judges that East-West will almost always find the ruff).
Sensible stop regulations, rigorously enforced, reduce the frequency of such cases.
0

#18 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,562
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2015-January-05, 08:39

View Postsfi, on 2015-January-05, 07:12, said:

No. Skip bid warnings are unheard of, and most people here wouldn't know what to do if they came across one.

They were introduced for the PABF in 2008, but completely ignored during that event (not just by Australians) and we've never heard of the concept again.

Then "normal tempo" over a skip bid is, in Australia, the same 2-3 seconds as over a simple bid.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#19 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2015-January-05, 10:13

View Postsfi, on 2015-January-05, 07:12, said:

No. Skip bid warnings are unheard of, and most people here wouldn't know what to do if they came across one.

They were introduced for the PABF in 2008, but completely ignored during that event (not just by Australians) and we've never heard of the concept again.


View Postblackshoe, on 2015-January-05, 08:39, said:

Then "normal tempo" over a skip bid is, in Australia, the same 2-3 seconds as over a simple bid.

I haven't played in Australia, but sfi's post is about the "warnings", not about the tempo in skip-bid situations. Perhaps players there are mature enough to recognize a skip bid all by themselves and appropriately vary their tempo.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#20 User is offline   barmar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 21,398
  • Joined: 2004-August-21
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2015-January-05, 10:45

View Postaguahombre, on 2015-January-05, 10:13, said:

I haven't played in Australia, but sfi's post is about the "warnings", not about the tempo in skip-bid situations. Perhaps players there are mature enough to recognize a skip bid all by themselves and appropriately vary their tempo.

But Blackshoe's original question was about the tempo in skip-bid situations, not the warning. So the answer (about use of the warning) was non-responsive.

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users