[kenberg]

I have been trying to organize my thoughts about what happens after a (15-17) 1NT opening. Bear with me while I make some stipulations. I suppose that 1NT-2C-2M-3m is forcing, showing the minot m and the major other than M. So 1NT-2S (showing clubs)- 3NT(showing a fit for clubs)-3H is not long clubs and four hearts, I would start that hand with 2C. Now I think most people I know would say 3H is a splinter like bid. Short hearts and a slam try. But hold on. If I bid not 3H over 2NT but rather 3NT over 2NT that will surely end the auctio, as often it should: The transfer asked about a fit for clubs, partner said that he had a fit fdor clubs, I bid 3NT presumably because I think that 3NT is a good contract when partner has a fit for clubs.


OK, I have set this up for my question. Partner opens 1NT, I transfer to a minor, partner pre-accepts, I want to make a slam try, my side suits are 3-2-2 in some order. I do what?

I offer three possibilities:

Raise the minor m to 4m, forcing as a slam try w/o a stiff. So if m is clubs I bid 4C over the 2NT pre-acceptance (3C is surely the end of the auction since it could be on six cards and junk).

Reserve the next suit above the trump suit as a generic slam try, bids in other suits show shortness. So, over the 2NT pre-acceptance, 3H and 3S show shortness, but 3D would just be a slam try that either lacks shortness or has shortness in diamonds.

Bid 4NT. At least if we play kickback, and maybe if we don't play kickback, this is an invitation. With clubs as trump, any rkc w/o kickback is very iffy.

The situation doesn't arise often, and I guess I have been playing 4-suit transfers for an embarrassingly long time without ever sorting this out. I'm not all that fond of the convention in the first place, so I guess I have just ignored such matters.

Comments and references are welcome.

[helene_t]

 kenberg, on 2014-November-19, 09:25, said:

Reserve the next suit above the trump suit as a generic slam try, bids in other suits show shortness. So, over the 2NT pre-acceptance, 3H and 3S show shortness, but 3D would just be a slam try that either lacks shortness or has shortness in diamonds.

I think that's the way to go. But bidding 4♣ would be ok also, as long as you are sure when 4NT is ace-asking (or showing a diamond control if playing kickback) and when it is an offer to play.

[the_clown]

I like 4♣ as a slam try with no shortness. Over that I suppose 4N is to play and 4x is cue (unless you play kickback). If opener wants to RKCB he should cue and then bid 4N

[ArtK78]

Not really a comment about your suggestions, but rather on opener's rebid. It appears to be more common among experts who play 4-suit transfers to use the bid of responder's suit as the preacceptance and the intervening call (in the case of clubs, 2NT) as the denial bid. This makes the strong NT opener declarer on the minor suit game and slam hands. It makes responder declarer only when he intends to sign off in 3 of his long minor (and opener does not preaccept).

Given your suggestions, when responder intends to move to game or slam over opener's denial bid, responder will not bid his suit on the second round of the bidding, allowing opener to do so and become the declarer.

[ggwhiz]

I too like 4♣ as the slam try without shortness but would include 3♦ as showing shortness as potentially critical information.

Cue bidding after that with 4nt along the way just saying I have a (useful) control above clubs that I haven't shown yet.

I don't play kickback either but when I started had a once a month club game with a guy where we played nothing, not even stayman. Everything was quantitative or a cue and it was a hoot.

[lowerline]

If opener does not pre-accept, responder's 3nt shows a mild slam interest without shortness. The assumption is that a hand with mild slam interest is strong enough to bypass 3nt when opener does pre-accept.

There are several options for the meaning of the 4-level bids now. This is what I like:

• 4m: Last Train, allowing opener to sign off in 4nt with a minimum
• 4nt: Optional Blackwood, allowing opener to sign off in 5m with a minimum
• 4x: control-showing with serious slam interest

S.

[helene_t]

 ArtK78, on 2014-November-19, 10:04, said:

Not really a comment about your suggestions, but rather on opener's rebid. It appears to be more common among experts who play 4-suit transfers to use the bid of responder's suit as the preacceptance and the intervening call (in the case of clubs, 2NT) as the denial bid. This makes the strong NT opener declarer on the minor suit game and slam hands. It makes responder declarer only when he intends to sign off in 3 of his long minor (and opener does not preaccept).

I don't think right-siding is the argument. If responder wants to play 5/6m you can always arange for opener to bid the minor suit first even if he doesn't bid it directly, something you would have to do whenever opener makes the intervening bid, whatever it means. Actually, making the intervening bid positive makes opener declare slightly more often since it also works when responder is invitational and opener declines.

The argument I heard was that responder can bid 2NT with a weak hand with both minors, then pass a 3♣ response since clubs will often be opener's longest minor in that case.

[Tramticket]

I play a weak NT with 4 suit tansfers, but I guess the continuations are similar after adjusting for the different strength NT.

Our rule is that we insist on a six-card suit for a transfer to a minor. We can then disctinguish between 6-4 hands and 5-4 hands:
- With 6-4: transfer to the minor and then bid the second four-card suit.
- With 5-4: bid Stayman to enquire for a 4-4 major suit fit. If no fit is found, a bid of 3m shows a FIVE card suit only.

[kenberg]

 Tramticket, on 2014-November-19, 11:28, said:

I play a weak NT with 4 suit tansfers, but I guess the continuations are similar after adjusting for the different strength NT.

Our rule is that we insist on a six-card suit for a transfer to a minor. We can then disctinguish between 6-4 hands and 5-4 hands:
- With 6-4: transfer to the minor and then bid the second four-card suit.
- With 5-4: bid Stayman to enquire for a 4-4 major suit fit. If no fit is found, a bid of 3m shows a FIVE card suit only.

I see the point of this. There is a certain natural simplicity to it among other things.

[kenberg]

 ArtK78, on 2014-November-19, 10:04, said:

Not really a comment about your suggestions, but rather on opener's rebid. It appears to be more common among experts who play 4-suit transfers to use the bid of responder's suit as the preacceptance and the intervening call (in the case of clubs, 2NT) as the denial bid. This makes the strong NT opener declarer on the minor suit game and slam hands. It makes responder declarer only when he intends to sign off in 3 of his long minor (and opener does not preaccept).

Given your suggestions, when responder intends to move to game or slam over opener's denial bid, responder will not bid his suit on the second round of the bidding, allowing opener to do so and become the declarer.

Oops, I need to think more here. Early comments have been dumped.

Ok, I am back. The auction begins 1NT-2S, showing six clubs. My guess is that
a. Far more often than not, opener does not have the right hand for pre-acceptance.
b. The final contract, unless the opponents enter, is 3C.

If this is so, then probably we want the NT hand as declarer. This is not totally clear since a lot is known about the NT hand even if it is hidden, but having the opening lead come up to it sounds right. So, in this frequent case, we want opener to rebid 3C.

I cannot say I know the percentages, not even a rough estimate, but it seems to me that the most frequent use of 4-suit transfers is to get the contract to 3m to play.

But I have a book somewhere by Alan Truscott who advocates the approach you recommend. I need to take it seriously.

[TylerE]

 ArtK78, on 2014-November-19, 10:04, said:

It appears to be more common among experts who play 4-suit transfers to use the bid of responder's suit as the preacceptance and the intervening call (in the case of clubs, 2NT) as the denial bid. This makes the strong NT opener declarer on the minor suit game and slam hands. It makes responder declarer only when he intends to sign off in 3 of his long minor (and opener does not preaccept).

Also means responder can bid 2N with a weak both minors hand and have a decent shot at finding the better fit.

[kenberg]

 TylerE, on 2014-November-19, 15:09, said:

Also means responder can bid 2N with a weak both minors hand and have a decent shot at finding the better fit.

Ah yes. Now that you say this, I recall that was Truscott's argument. 1NT-2NT (showing either six diamonds or else a diamond/club two-suiter)-3C (no fit for diamonds)-pass (ok, we play in clubs).
This is not so much needed if, as some play, 1NT-3C shows a weak 5-5 but if 1NT-3C is Puppet then this treatment could be very useful.

Mostly I am trying to write things down because I grow weary of misunderstandings, but the better the agreement the better.

[fromageGB]

 kenberg, on 2014-November-19, 12:51, said:

Ok, I am back. The auction begins 1NT-2S, showing six clubs. My guess is that
a. Far more often than not, opener does not have the right hand for pre-acceptance.
b. The final contract, unless the opponents enter, is 3C.

If this is so, then probably we want the NT hand as declarer. This is not totally clear since a lot is known about the NT hand even if it is hidden, but having the opening lead come up to it sounds right. So, in this frequent case, we want opener to rebid 3C.

I cannot say I know the percentages, not even a rough estimate, but it seems to me that the most frequent use of 4-suit transfers is to get the contract to 3m to play.

In that case, why not play compulsory transfers? 2NT transfer to 3♣? If playing kickback as you suggest, a suit bid now shows a shortage (a void if you follow this with ace asking), 3NT could be to play but warning of no values outside your suit in case opener wishes to run, while 4♣ could be forcing and inviting opener ace ask, or you can ask yourself with 4♦. There are many alternatives and opener plays the hand in all of them. I would certainly want opener to play the hand.

If you need or desire 4 card support, maybe with a shorter minor suit, then you can have 2♠ as minor suit stayman. Even if you are single-minored, as you do not have to have both. If he denies 4 card support by bidding 2NT or 3♦, you still have the option of playing in NT or the minor (3M to transfer to the corresponding minor?).

[steve2005]

 kenberg, on 2014-November-19, 17:09, said:

Ah yes. Now that you say this, I recall that was Truscott's argument. 1NT-2NT (showing either six diamonds or else a diamond/club two-suiter)-3C (no fit for diamonds)-pass (ok, we play in clubs).

I think with a strong NT you should be able to sit for 1N, there's no guarantee 3m better need 2 extra tricks. You can also have screwup and bid 3♣ where opener has longer ♦ but not a positive response.

Opp might rescue you with 2M

If you get doubled or want to compete after opponents balance you can bid 2N for the minors.

[Vampyr]

 lowerline, on 2014-November-19, 10:10, said:

• 4m: Last Train, allowing opener to sign off in 4nt with a minimum
• 4nt: Optional Blackwood, allowing opener to sign off in 5m with a minimum
• 4x: control-showing with serious slam interest

S.

Using 4m as ace-asking allows a sign off in 4NT.

 helene_t, on 2014-November-19, 10:30, said:

The argument I heard was that responder can bid 2NT with a weak hand with both minors, then pass a 3♣ response since clubs will often be opener's longest minor in that case.

Yes. I have had this auction several times.

[steve2005]

lowerline, on 2014-November-19, 11:10, said:

• 4m: Last Train, allowing opener to sign off in 4nt with a minimum
• 4nt: Optional Blackwood, allowing opener to sign off in 5m with a minimum
• 4x: control-showing with serious slam interest

 Vampyr, on 2014-November-20, 15:20, said:

Using 4m as ace-asking allows a sign off in 4NT.

Using 4m+1 as Kickback allows 4m as Last Train

4N then controls bid for 4m+1

[gedikk]

It is common that 1NT-2C-2any-3m is an unbalanced, game-forcing hand with 5+ in a minor, with or without a side major. Possible following bids by Opener: 1) suit (CONTROL) - with m fit; 2) 3NT - misfit or 4333 with few controls; 3) 4m - slam interest, good m fit and controls in remaining suits.