[WesleyC]

Good Bidding, Bad Luck.

On some days south holds [xx QJTx xxx AKxx] and you get to celebrate!

[beowulf]

A bit of bad luck, but also I think 1NT is wrong on the East hand. Yes, it is a balanced 16-count, and yes, you have weak hearts, and yes, you have three spades (so if partner transfers to spades while holding three hearts you won't be in the wrong major).

BUT, opening 1NT with a five-card major should still (IMO) show a hand that is notrump-oriented. You have all your values outside of clubs. The actual result wasn't all that surprising.

Also, if you play Puppet Stayman because you frequently open 1NT with a 5-card major, then why not invoke it to find out.

[Jinksy]

 helene_t, on 2014-November-18, 09:28, said:

Maybe this poor 10-count is only worth an invite. In that case, opener could chose to show the heart suit instead of simply accepting the invite.

Sounds resultsy to me. It's not that bad a 10-count - at least you have a working diamond suit. Plus if your invite is 2♠, you're likely to make things worse for yourself by giving LHO a chance to double.

[PhantomSac]

 beowulf, on 2014-November-18, 11:08, said:

Also, if you play Puppet Stayman because you frequently open 1NT with a 5-card major, then why not invoke it to find out.

Because you are 4333? More often than not 4333 opp 5332 will play better in 3N. Yes, it's possible that 4M will be better because you are off a suit and have 10 tricks, but a lot of the time since you won't take a trick with a ruff 3N will have as many tricks as 4M.

As for "opening 1H because it's a suit oriented hand" that's great, I'm sure everyone who said that has methods to show this hand (notably gazilli). Because without methods I don't really relish the thought of opening 1H and rebidding 2D and passing 2H (nor do I like opening 1H and rebidding 2D and bidding 2N after a preference). I don't like 1H p 2x p ?, there is not a great way to show this hand type (though I'm sure you all have methods like 2N showing extras to enable you to open 1H). How about 1H p 1S p ? That really sucks, I guess we all play gazilli. How about something like 1H 1S X 2S ? I guess 2N shows this since we might open 1H with this, and with a bal 18 we bid 3N?

And you know what, even if you play all of that, you have still lost something in the process. There are lots of advnatages to eliminating a certain NT range from your opening bids. For instance I don't know if any of you include xx xxx AKJ AKT9x into a 1C opener. Personally, I'd prefer to be able to open 1C on that. Unfortunately most bidding systems don't allow you to show a bal 15 after opening 1C (assuming strong NT). A 1M opener is different since there are more gains to opening 1M on hands like that (like finding a major suit partial) but it still is hard to deny eliminating a bal 15-16 from a 1M opener helps the rest of your system/competitive auctions even if you have great agreements. That is why a lot of people just open 1N with a 5332 16 regardless of suit oriented or not, because the strain of including it in your system in uncontested and contested auctions is pretty big, esp if it's optional.

Certainly it is playable either way (though you need better followup methods if you open 1M), but the idea of bidding puppet stayman with 4333 (or regular stayman, or puppet then show your 4 card major) is really terrible even if you (like me) open 1N with AK AKJxx xxx xxx.

Creating a thread about having these hands and going 1N 3N and having a bunch of people say you shouldnt bid 1N or you shouldnt bid 3N or blah blah is missing the point. Sometimes pairs take probabilistic actions that don't work. Sometimes pairs open something that in a vacuum you would not but because it is required by your system or you gain enough from the whole system concept that it's worth it. I mean everyone here seems to love fantunes, they open 1N on 4441 and 5242, that is clearly terrible but they do it for the rest of their system to work. It is a trade off.

Another example is playing 14-16 NT that 1M p 1N p 2x shows 4. That means you have to open 1N on AKQTx xx Axx xxx (or open 1S and pass 1N and miss game sometimes). That sucks. But you gain a lot by 2m showing 4. Also playing semi forcing NT it sucks when you have 7 hearts or 3 spades and a 5 count and you respond 1N and it goes all pass. But you can't really post a hand and be like yo who bid it wrong when the worst part of your system occurs. The worst part of your system sometimes happens to make the whole unit better.

[Wackojack]

I thought I would do a quick and slightly unscientific study using Playbridge deal generator. I put in Opener’s hand as it was and constrained responder’s hand to exactly 10 points and with the type of distribution that would raise 1NT directly to 3NT. Viz: 2-3♠, 2-3♥, 2-4♦, 2-4♣.
Saved as FR8126Q
Results from 32 boards:

5-2 ♥ fit on 5 hands, 4 making 3N, 1 down 1 when 4♥ was also down 1.
Responder had 4 clubs on 31 hands, 1 club on 1 hand (Q107), and 2 clubs on zero hands.

After an admittedly quick eyeballing of the hands this is what I saw:
Of the 27 hands with a 5-3 fit:
12 3N and 4♥ made
9 3N and 4♥ down
6 3N made 4♥ down
0 3N down 4♥ made

So if partner has a 4333 distribution and 10HCP:

1. Do not worry that partner will not have a club stop. This is will be extremely rare and partner’s 4 card suit is very likely to be clubs.

2. If you open 1NT on this hand and partner responds 3NT you will make it about 70% of the time.

3. If alternatively you open 1♥ on this hand and get to 4♥ when partner has 3 card support, you will make it only about 45% of the time.


Amen to Justins post above

[andy_h]

I like a style where I can choose between opening 1M or 1NT (although you'd generally need some system follow-ups after 1M-1NT or 1H-1S). If I can choose, I would almost always choose to open 1M with a small doubleton, so 1H is what I would open here.

[dickiegera]

sorry

[somajigoma]

THE BOOK ? Which "the book"? It's absolutely silly to open this hand 1NT as the hand is not oriented for NT at all.Look, there is the disgusting xx in clubs and almost open diamond suit.13HCP concentrated in hearts and spades plus a 5 card major suit are all against a no trump bid.4 And half defensive tricks which will be useful if opponents intervene over 1Heart opening but not in notrumps .Well my international friend opened 1No trump and opponents scored the first NINE tricks and deservedly got a big zero.To rub salt,all the other 23 pairs played quietly in 2 or 3 hearts making comfortably.The problem poser got a bad result as he followed the book bid blindly. I am sure the author would have opened nothing else than a straight forward 1Heart and the bidding would have gone 1H-p-2H-P-3C(short suit try)-p-4H all pass.Sorry,no sympathy for such a poor opening bid chosen,and don't blame the luck at all.

[ggwhiz]

 somajigoma, on 2014-November-19, 09:42, said:

THE BOOK ? Which "the book"? It's absolutely silly to open this hand 1NT as the hand is not oriented for NT at all.

So after 1♥ and a 1♠ (or 1nt) response you bid?

Imo you have as many warts. Not saying your style isn't playable but calling 1nt "silly" is an overbid.

[somajigoma]

 ggwhiz, on 2014-November-19, 10:01, said:

So after 1♥ and a 1♠ (or 1nt) response you bid?

Imo you have as many warts. Not saying your style isn't playable but calling 1nt "silly" is an overbid.

Here Sir,answers to your query .2spade over 1Spade.Pass over 1 NT unless it is of forcing variety.1NT by partner denies a 3 card support and also four cards of spades and no good 10 HCP. no trump will certainly play better from his hand.And lastly Sir you can construct many hands where neither a 1Heart or 1Nt opening will lead to PAR contracts.As I said 1 NT went 3 down in the example I quoted.If you do follow the losing trick count theory after a 5 card major system you will always get more than 90 % correct contracts and the system which works 90 % is the best system.Yours truly,Somajigomaji (real name withheld)Indian National Master.

[dickiegera]

sorry

[MrAce]

 somajigoma, on 2014-November-19, 11:09, said:

Here Sir,answers to your query .2spade over 1Spade.Pass over 1 NT unless it is of forcing variety.1NT by partner denies a 3 card support and also four cards of spades and no good 10 HCP. no trump will certainly play better from his hand.And lastly Sir you can construct many hands where neither a 1Heart or 1Nt opening will lead to PAR contracts.As I said 1 NT went 3 down in the example I quoted.If you do follow the losing trick count theory after a 5 card major system you will always get more than 90 % correct contracts and the system which works 90 % is the best system.Yours truly,Somajigomaji (real name withheld)Indian National Master.

This is not B/N (Bragging Novice) forum, you may try this.....http://www.bridgebas...beginner-forum/

Hold on! I just read the last part of your post. Sorry m8, I see you are a national master.
And thanks for withholding the real name to prevent intimidation. Very humble of you!
Without your presence, young punks like this Phantomsac were giving lectures here. Please enlighten him, Sir National Master.

[mikeh]

 MrAce, on 2014-November-19, 14:52, said:

This is not B/N (Bragging Novice) forum, you may try this.....http://www.bridgebas...beginner-forum/

Hold on! I just read the last part of your post. Sorry m8, I see you are a national master.
And thanks for withholding the real name to prevent intimidation. Very humble of you!
Without your presence, young punks like this Phantomsac were giving lectures here. Please enlighten him, Sir National Master.

Hi Timo


I have a vague memory of a brash new poster, joined around November 2009, I think, who used some pretty strong language criticizing the opinions of others. If he was the person I think he was, then he turned out to be a pretty good guy and one of my favourite posters

Maybe give our Indian friend a break or two this early in his posting history. I suspect he has no idea of the calibre and experience level of the better players who post here. Most players who aren't exposed to high-level bridge, and who see themselves, often correctly, as amongst the best they know, take a while to realize that being a big fish in a small pond means nothing once they get out into the ocean. And how many forums are there on the internet....and how many places in the real world....where the forums have multiple national champions, and some world champions, rubbing metaphorical shoulders with beginners and all in between?

[MrAce]

 mikeh, on 2014-November-19, 15:17, said:

Hi Timo


I have a vague memory of a brash new poster, joined around November 2009, I think, who used some pretty strong language criticizing the opinions of others. If he was the person I think he was, then he turned out to be a pretty good guy and one of my favourite posters

Maybe give our Indian friend a break or two this early in his posting history. I suspect he has no idea of the calibre and experience level of the better players who post here. Most players who aren't exposed to high-level bridge, and who see themselves, often correctly, as amongst the best they know, take a while to realize that being a big fish in a small pond means nothing once they get out into the ocean. And how many forums are there on the internet....and how many places in the real world....where the forums have multiple national champions, and some world champions, rubbing metaphorical shoulders with beginners and all in between?

Actually I am pretty confident this guy is not a newcomer at all and I had my suspicions confirmed. Just wait and see

[mikeh]

 MrAce, on 2014-November-19, 15:46, said:

Actually I am pretty confident this guy is not a newcomer at all and I had my suspicions confirmed. Just wait and see

The plot thickens. I shall await developments

[dickiegera]

sorry

[Nabooba]

Opening 1NT on this hand is not terrible. However if you have the methods to show a good 16 pointer after opening 1M, then opening 1NT is a clear error. As some have already pointed out, the hand is oriented to suit play. Of sourse, if you do not have these methods then you are forced to open 1NT otherwise you may well have problems in your rebid. Interestingly all the Polish players I have played against play a 15-17 NT which does not include a 5 card M. They do not play Gazilli as they have no need for it; they also would not open the hand with 1C as it is not strong enough. They seem to cope well though.

[biggerclub]

 helene_t, on 2014-November-18, 09:28, said:

Maybe this poor 10-count . . .

So there really is a first time for everything. I disagree that this is a poor 10-ct.

It might be better if the system used a bid like 2C to show a strong, GF, hand and act not as Stayman, nor anything else in particular but as a simple relay asking for more information (See Hughes, "Building a Bidding System", pp 33-45). But such intelligent processes have not caught on in North America yet.

If Jxx in a minor isn't a stopper . . . better luck next time.

I am a bit more sympathetic to those who call for a 1H opening on the theory that the hand is more suit oriented . . . but that has its problems as well. As noted, what is the rebid after 1S? I guess I have to make a choice between drastically underbidding (1NT, 2S) or drastically overbidding (2NT, surely no one will venture 3S here).

[biggerclub]

 somajigoma, on 2014-November-19, 09:42, said:

THE BOOK ? Which "the book"?

I'm sure there are others, but Kantar's 540 Bidding Tips to Improve Your Partner's Game springs immediately to mind.

[Nabooba]

 biggerclub, on 2014-November-19, 20:44, said:

So there really is a first time for everything. I disagree that this is a poor 10-ct.

It might be better if the system used a bid like 2C to show a strong, GF, hand and act not as Stayman, nor anything else in particular but as a simple relay asking for more information (See Hughes, "Building a Bidding System", pp 33-45). But such intelligent processes have not caught on in North America yet.

If Jxx in a minor isn't a stopper . . . better luck next time.

I am a bit more sympathetic to those who call for a 1H opening on the theory that the hand is more suit oriented . . . but that has its problems as well. As noted, what is the rebid after 1S? I guess I have to make a choice between drastically underbidding (1NT, 2S) or drastically overbidding (2NT, surely no one will venture 3S here).

Gazilli?