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Structure of major suit raises by opener after a 1D-1M auction 2/1, unbalanced diamond with transfer rebids.

#1 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 04:04

So after the auction 1D-1M, playing transfers, you have a LOT of ways for opener to raise partner, but I'm not entirely sure what they should all be used for. The partnership opens almost all 11 counts (QJx Axxx KJxxx x is a dead minimum). Any thoughts? Obviously there are lots of ways to allocate these bids, but I was thinking below to start the discussion:

Transferring to clubs then bidding hearts - 1=3=5=4 strong hand with extras
Transferring to diamonds then bidding hearts at a low level - 6 diamonds 3 hearts, good (something less than what 2NT is) (hand type lost in 1D-1S)
2D: Bad heart raise. (may be 3/4 card support instead, partner is thinking about what he'd prefer to know given my opening tendencies).
2H: Good heart raise. (see above)
2NT: 4 card heart raise, very (17+) strong, or 6 diamonds with 3 card support, jump rebid strong (16-17+). 3C asks which. - This just mirrors our 1C structure, not because I think it is good or anything.
3H: 15-17 heart raise
3S: Splinter?
3NT: Void Splinter? (does this have a better use?)
4C: Splinter
4D: Splinter
4H: 6/5 diamonds and hearts? No earthly idea.

Some of this is predicated on the fact that if weak partner is much more likely to pass 1D than he is 1C because of the expected length difference, particularly vul. In the other thread Balonga suggests using 3C and 3D as immediate 3 card support, and transferring then bidding as not three card support (implying 5/5 or 5431 with a stiff in P's major). I think this is better because you get to show the difference between 5/5 minors and 5/4 minors, and you can also get off the train one level lower after this: 1D-1H-1NT-2C-2H-?? than this: 1D-1H-3C-?? but you have of course kept things where they can interfere. If partner wants to absolutely force to game opposite a flat 6-7 count he can of course bid 1D-1H-1NT-2C-3H-??

For reference, other bids
Spoiler


Reference thread from Mgoetze's system index here: http://www.bridgebas...-unbalanced-1d/

This post has been edited by Cthulhu D: 2014-November-17, 06:27

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#2 User is offline   snillrik13 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 05:12

I Think you have good bids but would swop 2D and 2H spitting it in 12-14 and 15-17. 2NT, 18+ is fine. Higher bids I would use for various 6-4 and limit 2NT to5431, 5422 and 4441. The two last a Little stronger.(20 hcp?)
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#3 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 06:07

View Postsnillrik13, on 2014-November-17, 05:12, said:

I Think you have good bids but would swop 2D and 2H spitting it in 12-14 and 15-17. 2NT, 18+ is fine. Higher bids I would use for various 6-4 and limit 2NT to5431, 5422 and 4441. The two last a Little stronger.(20 hcp?)


Why not use 3H for the 15-17 (NB: we generally don't 'upgrade' our hand evaluation for opener's stiff here, partner already knows opener has got it so helping him understand raw power is often more important, as he can basically guess this is 5 diamonds, 4 hearts and 31 in the other two suits some huge percentage of the time, so this has to be a really chunky raise). If not using it for that purpose, what are you using it for?

With the 2D/2H raises, I think you are thinking we are sounder citizens than we actually are. I'll edit this into the OP, but I like having more differentiation in the (10)11-14 hands as we open all 11 counts and some 10 counts (because we are lunatics), so it's really helpful for partner if he knows whether it's an 11 count special or a real full strength opener in judging whether 4H might make, if he has something ~11 HCP with some fitting values.

Edit: re: likely hand shapes on the auction 1D-1H-some 4 card heart raise where partner has an unbalanced hand, assuming that hands freakier than 6-4 or 5-4-4-0 can be safely ignored, you've got a 55% chance of a 5-4-3-1 hand, 20% chance of being 6-4-2-1 and a 13% chance of it being 4-4-4-1
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#4 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 06:23

Do you intend to play 1D-1H; 2D as non-forcing? If it is, then this may be better?

1D-1H;
2D = Minimum heart raise (perhaps 10-12) or GF raise with 3 hearts.
2H = Medium heart raise, like 12--14
2NT = GF heart raise (extras with 3 hearts, but non GF, and 6 diamonds go via the diamond transfer)
3H = Max non-GF heart raise, 15--17

I'm thinking that medium hands should be able to show their support at the 2-level, and that max (non-GF) hands could show it at the 3-level (with an option for diamonds) if there's not enough space at the 2-level. Something like:

Transfer to clubs, then 2 hearts: Medium 3-card heart raise, pattern out
Transfer to clubs, then 3 diamonds: Maximum 3-card heart raise, pattern out

You'll have to create your own logic, but I think that being able to show four intervals would work:

- Minimum (if 3+ support, support directly via transfer to the major)
- Medium (direct support with 4, delayed support with 3)
- Max non GF (direct support with 4, delayed support with 3)
- GF (two bids depending on 3 or 4-card support
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#5 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 07:09

I really like the comments, you've got some really great ideas and you sparked a number of good thoughts. I am anticipating transfer acceptance is NF in my thoughts below, so after 1D-1M-1NT responder will give diamonds preference normally.

View PostKungsgeten, on 2014-November-17, 06:23, said:

Do you intend to play 1D-1H; 2D as non-forcing? If it is, then this may be better?

1D-1H;
2D = Minimum heart raise (perhaps 10-12) or GF raise with 3 hearts.
2H = Medium heart raise, like 12--14
2NT = GF heart raise (extras with 3 hearts, but non GF, and 6 diamonds go via the diamond transfer)
3H = Max non-GF heart raise, 15--17


Yeah, 2D as NF is the intention - the theory being responder is well positioned to select the contract particularly if it's 3 card vs 4 card raise (any hand with a 3 card raise has to have 5 diamonds, so he can safely play in an 8 card minor fit rather than a 7 card major fit if he so judges). I'm a bit stuck on resolving this, for partner getting to have two ways to raise was the primary value add of the methods and as a result he's going to get to make the final decision on what two ways to raise he would like to have. I anticipate that he will want to bid a bunch of hands with both and see what he thinks before we land in a final spot, but indicatively we've got good-bad.

This is a shame as the GF raise with 3 hearts in 2D is clever. I will float this with partner as you can easily pattern out. It also solves (many) of the problems in the table (see table at the bottom). I think if we commit to raising on 4, this is an easy addition.

Good suggestion with the GF heart raise in 2NT there - do you take the singleton self splinters out and put them in this? Then you could make the splinters void splinters, and use 3C as an ask for the singleton shortness after 1D-1M-2NT.

Quote

I'm thinking that medium hands should be able to show their support at the 2-level, and that max (non-GF) hands could show it at the 3-level (with an option for diamonds) if there's not enough space at the 2-level. Something like:

Transfer to clubs, then 2 hearts: Medium 3-card heart raise, pattern out
Transfer to clubs, then 3 diamonds: Maximum 3-card heart raise, pattern out


This is very clever - I was initially afraid of losing strong 6-4 minor hands, but I really like this. Incidentally, when you say pattern out.. what for? After the sequence 1D-1H-1NT-2C-2H responder can surely place the final contract with his next bid (maybe you need 3H as a re-invite to bid the slim games). There is a 91% probability that partner is exactly 5 diamonds, 4 clubs and 3 card support with a stiff in oM. Surely now anything else is a slam try.

edit: Derp, what do we do with a stiff club and 4 spades.

Quote

You'll have to create your own logic, but I think that being able to show four intervals would work:

- Minimum (if 3+ support, support directly via transfer to the major)
- Medium (direct support with 4, delayed support with 3)
- Max non GF (direct support with 4, delayed support with 3)
- GF (two bids depending on 3 or 4-card support


I think this makes a lot of sense, and I really like it, but I am stuck on where do we put the GF 3 card raise in the structure if I want to keep 1D-1M-2D as NF? I guess I'm happy to bury some of them. Often I think 3NT is going to be the play to play rather than 4-3 fit, and if opener has just finished describing his hand exactly we want it on the table in 3NT, but any auction that starts with a club transfer is going to have the closed hand relaying to the open hand if 3NT is the final spot. I actually have this concern generally with auctions that go

1D-1M-1NT-2C-3 card raise bid, because we've wrong sided NT. Not sure.

There are really 4 shape buckets as I see it:

All hands with 4 card support - partner is very strong on the view that these must raise directly, so I must allocate them all to direct raise, which is fine. (there are four sub types here, which is 6 diamonds, 4 clubs, 4 oM and 4441 hands, which I shall pretend do not exist).
6 diamonds 3 card support hands
5 diamonds, 3 card support, 4 oM
5 diamonds, 3 card support, 4 clubs

And 4 strengths of raise as you outline: trash, real opener, max, gameforce. So 16 hand types (well, ideally 28 but not sure I can squeeze everything in).

I'm just trying to jam everything in as we speak!

	4	6 w/3	5 with 4oM	        5 with 4 clubs
Trash	2D	xD-P 	1S                      Xfer clubs, pass
Opener	2M	xD-H 	1S                      Xfer clubs, bid 2H
Max	3M	???     1S                      Xfer clubs, bid 3D?
GF	2NT	2NT	Bid 2S	                Xfer clubs 3H?


As you can see from the table, not sure what to do with a big 15-17 hand with 3 card support and 6 diamonds. I think I just jettison the ability to show that with precision, and split it into cruder ranges, real opener, and near game force. Partner can always disambiguate over 1D-1M-2NT though it may leak some information if 3C is an ask with a better than minimum, whereas 3D is p/c and 3H is weak to play (responder can just raise to four with a GF).

I hate the strong 5 diamonds, 4 clubs, 3 hearts hands though because I feel like we are going to be wrong sided 3NT a lot.

I think the value of your proposed 3 card game force raise going through 2D is apparent here, because the following is possible:

	4	6 w/3	5 with 4oM   5 with 4 clubs
Trash	2D	xD-P 	1S           xC-Pass
Opener	2M	xD-H 	1S           xC-2M
Max	3M	2NT     1S           xC-3D
GF	2NT	2D-3D   2D-2oM	     2D-3C (look ma, we haven't wrongsided 3NT!)


Still wrong sided 3NT a lot though, but much nicer. And we've still got the splinters to use for.. something. God knows what. I think you've sold me on the 1D-1M-2D GF w/3 concept.
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#6 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 08:57

If playing 1D-1M; 2NT as 4+ support and GF, I would probably use some kind of Stenberg/Jacoby-like rebids. Since I'm mostly familiar with the Swedish Skrot-version:

1D-1M; 2NT---
3C = Minimum (perhaps 9 or less?)
...3D = Ask shortness, same responses as below but four-level denies shortage and is cue instead
...3H = Shows own club shortage
...3S = Shows 6421 and a stiff honour
...3N = Shows own shortage in other major
3D = Extras, no singleton
3H = Short clubs, extras
3S = Short diamonds, extras
3N = Short other major, extras
4m = Void (but perhaps 4D should indicate double fit instead)
4H = Void other major

What to do with 4 spades and stiff club? Well, I'd suggest playing 1D-1H; 1S as almost forcing. So just bid 1S :) Now responder requires four card support to raise spades, otherwise he must bid 1NT (non-forcing), 2C (game forcing?), 2D (preference), 2H (I guess invitational since you have a weak jump shift available over 1D) or 2NT/3D (invitational). So:

1D--1H; 1S--1N/2D; 2H = 4-3-5-1, "normal opener"
1D--1H; 1S--1N/2D; 3D = 4-3-5-1, "extras non-GF"

Now 1D--1H; 2S would be natural GF without 3-card support (I guess)

Another alternative, if you want 1D--1H; 2D as non-forcing:

1D--1H; 2S = Artificial, GF with 3 hearts. Now 1D--1H; 1S is forcing, since it may contain very strong hands (responder may pass if he responded on air, ofcourse). After this 2S rebid you could use 2NT to ask opener to pattern out, or use other gadgets.
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#7 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 00:43

OK I bailed up partner and this is go, so I think we're going with:

Opener range definitions:

Trash: 11-12 (I am highly ashamed of my opening)
Opener: 13-14 (I have a real opening hand
Max: 15-17
GF: 17/18+

Generally where 2N is available for that hand type (as responder when very weak can get out in 3D or 3M), 2N = good 17+, otherwise it is 18+. This has symmetry with our systems after 1C-1Red(xfer).

1D-1H:

1S: Natural, 11-17ish
1N: 4+ Clubs, Forcing
2C: 6+ Diamonds
2D: Bad raise of hearts with 4 or GF with 3
2H: Good raise with 4
2S: Jump reverse, like 18+ or maybe mini splinter.
2N: Either 17+ with 4 or 3H and 6D
3C: 5/5
3D: 15-17 with 6D
3H: 15-17 with 4
3S: GF Splinter
4C: GF Splinter
4D: ??!?!

Follow on principles:

        4       6 w/3   5 with 4oM   5 with 4 clubs and 3 5 with 4 clubs and 3 oM
Trash   2D      xD-P    1S           xC-Pass              xC-Pass
Opener  2M      xD-2H   1S           xC-Pass              xC-Pass
Max     3M      2N      1S           xC-2H                xC-3C
GF      2N      2D-3D   2S           2D-3C                xC-2S                    


Meta rule: After opener has patterned out his hand and range, responder is expected to place the final contract (N.B. logically new suits are a slam try or a try for 3N?).

Diamond rebid ladder:

1D-1H

2C-2D-Pass 11-14 with 6 diamonds
3D 15-17 w/6 without 3 card support
2C-2D-3D GF w/6 diamonds without 3 card support

I think we're always ahead of the room in both the level we are at, and whether we are in a GF auction.

Transferring into a clubs then rebidding is 5/4
Transfering into diamonds then bidding at the 3 level is 18+ GF single suiter

Spades looks pretty similar with the obvious changes.

1D-1S:

1N: Clubs
2C: Hearts
2D: Diamonds
2H: Bad raise or 3 card GF raise
2S: Good raise
2N: Either 17+ with 4 or 3H and 6D
3C: 5/5
3D: 15-17 with 6D
3H: 15-17 with 4
3S: GF Splinter
4C: GF Splinter
4D: ??!?!


I'm not sure if I like the asymmetry in the rebids ladder caused by 1D-1H-2C-2D-2H showing a weaker hand than 1D-1H-1NT-2C-2H but I think that may just be life.

Also, not sure what to do with the GF with single suited diamonds and no 4 card side suit or 3 card suit (so 1=3=6=3 or similar distribution). I kinda feel like I have to put it in 3N.
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#8 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 01:43

View PostCthulhu D, on 2014-December-08, 00:43, said:

Also, not sure what to do with the GF with single suited diamonds and no 4 card side suit or 3 card suit (so 1=3=6=3 or similar distribution). I kinda feel like I have to put it in 3N.

If you turned 1-1M-1NT into Gazzilli, either clubs or any GF, then you can cope with even more hands including the above. It also allows you to remove some 4-card raises from the 2NT rebid based on range.
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#9 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 04:21

View Postpaulg, on 2014-December-08, 01:43, said:

If you turned 1-1M-1NT into Gazzilli, either clubs or any GF, then you can cope with even more hands including the above. It also allows you to remove some 4-card raises from the 2NT rebid based on range.


Partner likes support to be shown directly BUT removing the 4 card support hands this is a good idea. You're thinking something like:

1D-1M:

2NT: Any game force with 4 card support
2M-1: Bad raise or any game force with 3 card support:
1N: 4+ clubs or any game force with no support? - After which 2C is the GF Gazz bid?


Edit: Argh, What do I do with the 3=1=5=4 15-17 hands? You want to start with Gaz I think, so this is tricky.

Then other hands are defined thusly:

1D-1H:

1S: 12-17 NF
1N: Clubs or Gazzilli
2C: Diamonds
2D: Bad raise or any game force with 3 card support
2H: Good raise
2S: Invitational or slam going splinter
2NT: GF raises with 3 of very strong 17-19 with 6/3
3C: 5/5 15-17
3D: 6D with 15-17
3H: 15-17 with 4
3S: GF splinter, no extras
3N: ??
4C: Splinter
4D: ?? - 6D 5M?

Rebids after 1D-1H-1N - not sure these values make sense.


I'm not sure where to set the dividing line between bidding 2C and doing something else.

2C: 8+ GF - not sure this is the right value. Maybe it should be a bit weaker to deny game interest opposite the 15-17 rebid?
2D: <8 HCP, 2-3D
2H: <8 HCP, natural, 0-1D
2S: <8 HCP, natural, 0-1D
2N: ???
3C: <8HCP, natural, 0-1M


Openers rebids after 1D-1H-1N-2C:

2D: 11-15 min 5/4
2H: 1=3=5=4 with 15-17
2S: diamonds + spades GF
2N: 5/4 minors GF - denies 3 hearts
3C: 5/5 minors GF - denies 3 hearts
3D: 6 diamonds GF - denies 3 hearts

Edit: What do I do with the 3=1=5=4 15-17 hands?

Then after: 1D-1S

1N: Clubs or GF (Gazzilli)
2C: Hearts
2D: Diamonds 11-14 (may have 3)
2H: Bad raise or any game force with 3 card support
2S: Good raise
2NT: GF raises with 3 of very strong 17-19 with 6/3
3C: 5/5 15-17
3D: 6D with 15-17
3H: Invitational or slam going splinter
3S: 15-17 with 4
3N: ??
4C: Splinter
4D: ?? - 6D 5M?
4H: Min GF splinter


Rebids after 1D-1S-1N - not sure these values make sense.

2C: 8+ GF
2D: <8 HCP, 2-3D
2H: <8 HCP, natural, 0-1D
2S: <8 HCP, natural, 0-1D
2N: ???
3C: <8HCP, natural, 0-1M

Openers rebids after 1D-1S-1N-2C:

2D: 11-15 min 5/4+ minors
2H: ??? - how should this be different from starting with 2C directly? Pretty sure we should define 1 sequence for 6/5 hands in the reds, probably this one.
2S: 3=1=5=4 with 15-17
2N: 5/4 - denies 3 spades
3C: 5/5 minors GF - denies 3 spades
3D: 6 diamonds GF - denies 3 spades
3H: ??
3S: ??

Tip of the hat to Free for some of the material. That make sense? Any ideas for the vacant bids? (bolded with ???)

You lose the ability to show a mild (11-14) 6D 4C which is unfortunate I suspect but everything else looks really nice and defined.

Now I have more hands that I know what to do with in places e.g. What's the difference between:

1D-1H-1N!-2C!-3D and 1D-1H-2C!-2D-3D and 1D-1H-3D

I think it makes sense to limit the other hands to a bad 17, then we can do the following

Similarly what do you do with opener's reverses after auctions like

1D-1H-2C-2D:

2S: ??

Spoiler

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#10 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 05:25

View PostCthulhu D, on 2014-December-08, 04:21, said:

Partner likes support to be shown directly BUT removing the 4 card support hands this is a good idea.


Our 2NT rebid is not game-forcing so splitting some hands out from it using Gazzilli helps.

1 - 1M
1NT - ?

2 = 8+, any
2 = sign-off
2M = sign-off
2 (after 1) = sign-off
2 (after 1) = 4M, 4, 9-11
2NT = 4M, 4, 9-11
3 = 4M, 4+, <9 HCP
3 = 4M, 4, <9 HCP
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#11 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 05:37

View Postpaulg, on 2014-December-08, 05:25, said:

Our 2NT rebid is not game-forcing so splitting some hands out from it using Gazzilli helps.

1 - 1M
1NT - ?

2 = 8+, any
2 = sign-off
2M = sign-off
2 (after 1) = sign-off
2 (after 1) = 4M, 4, 9-11
2NT = 4M, 4, 9-11
3 = 4M, 4+, <9 HCP
3 = 4M, 4, <9 HCP


Yeah, I like this and will steal it. What do you do with the 3=1=5=4 (vs GF ones) hands in the 15-17 range after 1D-1H?

I was looking at:

1D					
	1H				4+ Hearts
		1S			4+,  12-17 points
			2C		7+ points relay
				2D	minimum with both minors
				2H	15-17 with 3 card support - 1=3=5=4 (ish)
				2S	spades + diamonds 18+ GF
				2N	3=1=5=4 minors game force
				3C	5/5 minors game force
				3D	6+ diamonds
				3H	??
				3S	??


But that doesn't leave any room for the 15-17 3=1=5=4 hand type. Cannot splinter in partner's suit either.

Everything else works really nicely except that hand type.
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#12 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 05:56

View PostCthulhu D, on 2014-December-08, 05:37, said:

Yeah, I like this and will steal it. What do you do with the 3=1=5=4 (vs GF ones) hands in the 15-17 range after 1D-1H?

We just make a decision whether to treat the hand as game forcing opposite a response or not, generally treating 15 counts as weak, 17 counts as strong and guessing with 16. It's not been a problem that we've felt inclined to solve, so I guess we've not found it a major issue.

You can change your mind too if it goes 1-1M-1NT-2 and then we'd tend to pass unless the 17 count looked good. It can depend on what you need to respond 1M!
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#13 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 05:57

View Postpaulg, on 2014-December-08, 05:56, said:

We just make a decision whether to treat the hand as game forcing opposite a response or not, generally treating 15 counts as weak, 17 counts as strong and guessing with 16. It's not been a problem that we've felt inclined to solve, so I guess we've not found it a major issue.


Yeah, I figured that was one solution. Works for me.
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#14 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-December-08, 06:01

Draft structure, obviously some holes. Structure is basically:

4 card suppport after 1D-1H

2D: Bad hand
2H: Full opener
2S: Mini or slammy splinter
2N: 4 card game forcing or 17-19 with 3 card support
3H: 15-17 (implies club shortness, but could be a suity 2=4=2=5 thing)
3S, 4CD splinters

3 card support after 1D-1H

11-14 with 3: Forget it
Transfer then 2 level support: 15-17
Transfer then 3 level support: 17-19
Rebid 2D then bid on: 3 card GF support

Immediate jumps are 15-17 with shapely hands

Weird exception to the general hand structure is:

Transfer to 2D: 11-14
Direct 3D rebid: 15-16
1D-1H-Transfer to diamonds, 3D: 17-18(-)
1D-1H-Transfer to clubs, 3D: 18+

with 5/4 and 3 cards in oM after a 1M response to 1D, you cannot show a 15-17 hand.


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