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show or tell?

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 12:00



2 waiting , 3 positive with 's, and please explain your reasoning and the plan for the rest of the auction.
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#2 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 12:28

View Postjillybean, on 2014-November-16, 12:00, said:



2 waiting , 3 positive with 's, and please explain your reasoning and the plan for the rest of the auction.



I usually see positive responses to 2 as interfering with pd's 2. I saw that terminology in BW or BBF not sure which but I like it. However, on this one I would start 3. Because it is extremely likely that we will either end up in or NT contract at 6-7 level and we have enough meat to waste the 2 level vs a 2 opener. Pd, if knows that we try to avoid positive responses unless we have reasons to, will have better understanding in subsequent auction.
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#3 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 12:58

Honestly, I just feel like bidding 6. There are way too many variations on opener's hand that I'm going to bid what I think I can make straight away.
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#4 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 13:27

Thanks for the problem! It should be a good one to discuss. Somewhat similar hands have been an ongoing topic of discussion in a private bridge discussion group among close bridge playing friends and teammates.

Since we play very disciplined responses over 2 (with 2 waiting), this hand would qualify for a positive 3 response. In our methods, a 3 response would convey the following information -- 5+ , 2 of 3 top honors, and 2 +QTs.

The alternative would be to simply use the 2 waiting response, then rebid , if possible, over partner's rebid to show a forward going feature. (Cheapest suit rebid would be negative, 2 NT rebid forward going but otherwise undefined values.)

While 3 might seem pretty clear, 2 waiting gets out of opener's way and let's them tell the story about their hand. For instance, if over 2 opener rebids in NT or a rounded suit, responder will get pretty excited about slam prospects. Also, the 2 waiting bid keeps the bidding lower and may allow the partnership bidding space to sort out the hand especially in the case of a misfit. OTOH, not bidding 3 may prevent opener from ever visualizing that responder's and/or hand are as good as they are.

It's a tough choice, especially since a rebid by opener seems likely. My gut feel is that I'd bid 3 as the hand and suit are just too good to do otherwise.
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 14:31

3D. That's too good a suit to hide.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 17:19

We have the agreement that a positive response will show a very good 5, likely 6 (if 5 it will look like 6) and 2 of the top 3.
Over 3 partner will bid 4.

If you now choose the exclusion route, partner shows 2

I like the line about 'positive responses interfering with partners 2 auction" , Timo
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#7 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 17:41

3d if not now then never, wow what a great suit.
I mean having a real positive response to 2c is pretty rare so lets use it when we got a clear and convincing one.

will rebid 4d over 3s by pard.

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wow again if pard bids 4d and over 5s exclusion shows 2 I will try 7d.
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 17:57

Show partner where you live. Bid 3.
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#9 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 21:41

Methods dictate the response. In my partnerships, 2 is a game force, and doesn't deny a good suit....a positive suit response shows a simple hand, and this is far from simple. On complex hands I prefer to wait to see what he rebids. Only a rebid in spades causes any issues. Ok, I admit that a spade rebid is likely but it isn't as if I will be much further ahead when he bids 3 over my 3. This hand has way to much to try to describe it, so I will let partner describe his.

If 2 denied a positive suit response (which I would never agree to play) then 3 is forced.
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 23:55

View Postjillybean, on 2014-November-16, 12:00, said:


2 waiting , 3 positive with 's, and please explain your reasoning and the plan for the rest of the auction.
IMO 3 = 10, 4 = 9, 2 = 8, 7N = 7, 7 = 6, 6 = 5.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 00:26

View Postmikeh, on 2014-November-16, 21:41, said:

a positive suit response shows a simple hand, and this is far from simple.

It looks like a 1-suiter to me ... does a positive deny honours outside the suit in your methods?

I think I would bid 2 followed by 3 on a 1-suited hand without the top strength in the suit, on a 2-suited hand with primarily diamonds, or with a strong suit that isn't long enough to bid immediately. This is already a lot of things to sort out. Making a positive response with this hand at least takes hands like this out of the 2 response.

I understand that we don't need to describe at all - if partner rebids clubs or hearts we can chose to raise instead. What should we do after a 2 (Kokish) rebid?
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#12 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 00:46

View Posthelene_t, on 2014-November-17, 00:26, said:

It looks like a 1-suiter to me ... does a positive deny honours outside the suit in your methods?

I think I would bid 2 followed by 3 on a 1-suited hand without the top strength in the suit, on a 2-suited hand with primarily diamonds, or with a strong suit that isn't long enough to bid immediately. This is already a lot of things to sort out. Making a positive response with this hand at least takes hands like this out of the 2 response.

I understand that we don't need to describe at all - if partner rebids clubs or hearts we can chose to raise instead. What should we do after a 2 (Kokish) rebid?


No...but to me this is a complex hand, because we have wonderful support for hearts and clubs and a better diamond suit than he will play us for if we try to describe our hand.

I said methods count. If I played a method in which my 3 bid on my second round denied a good suit, obviously I would respond 3 initially. I happen to think that such a method, tho very standard, is inferior, but I don't expect to convince anyone :D To me, a 2 opening is either strong balanced (and I suspect no expert would have a problem then after responding 2, lol) or one suited or, if 2 or 3 suited, extremely strong. I don't expect a problem if he is very strong, regardless of how I start. However, if he has a 1-suiter, or a balanced hand, the auction will usually time out better if I let him describe his hand to me, rather than me try to describe this unusual hand to him.

Over a kokish 2 I would of course bid 2

Indeed, 2 would be wonderful. If he now bid 2N, I would invoke whatever method this partnership has for showing a diamond slam-try (tho there is no 'try' about it here), and if he bids to show hearts, how the auction proceeds isn't clear because I don't know the methods in use, but I would hope to be able to agree hearts at the 3-level and later go nuts. Admittedly, this is a rare case on which, if he has hearts, I'd regret we played kokish, since over a natural 2 I would use exclusion right now.
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#13 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 14:18

3D followed by 4D, which should set diamonds.

I have diamonds, I have a pos. hand, I tell p this.
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#14 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 14:31

If not 3 here then one should take a positive 3 response out of their system.
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#15 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 15:32

View Postneilkaz, on 2014-November-17, 14:31, said:

If not 3 here then one should take a positive 3 response out of their system.

Why?

xxx xx AQJxx Qxx

I would respond 3

Basically, if I have a slam force hand, as we do here, with playability in 3 suits, I tend to wait. If I have a simple hand, that can be fairly well described by pre-empting our own constructive auction, then I will make the positive suit response, since I expect partner to be able to evaluate reasonably well.


Equally, I would bid 2 if I held, say, xx x AQxxx Qxxxx, since bidding 3 may make finding clubs difficult, while if partner shows a strong notrump, I can show both minors, with slam interest, and still stop in 4N or 5m, with confidence.
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#16 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 16:29

In my partnership we bid 2 with many hands that others might make a positive response on.

The reason being that the openers most likely next bid is 2nt with transfers etc. available so a 5-card major of quality waits.

Not on this hand though. A suit that likely plays for 1 loser opposite a void is a jump in diamonds and pretty close to what we promise with a 2/ response instead of the waiting 2.
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#17 User is offline   WesleyC 

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Posted 2014-November-18, 10:39

Although you will inevitably end up in either 6D/7D, it is probably best to start with 2D. The extra level of space might be what you need to get across the fact that you have a spade void.
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